Remember the Middle East during the Reagan administration?
Did we really consider them a threat then?
What has changed since then?
Remember when Iraq and Iran were Allies?
Is it cheaper to buy oil, or steal it?

Yes

I don't think we should. It is like trying to give a monkey caviar, or teach a squirrel to speak French. It simply can't be done. The Iraqis are a people who have been under a dictatorship for years and are only kept in line with fear. That is why they need a dictator. Now that there is no fist upon the Iraqis, they are acting like animals.

Well put, I couldn't agree more. I think democracy, would be in conflict with their religous beleifs as well... Not to mention, if they were to adopt a democracy, they would be a sitting target for all the surrounding "Bitches of Allah" (with-in striking distance).

Remember the Middle East during the Reagan administration?
Did we really consider them a threat then?
What has changed since then?
Remember when Iraq and Iran were Allies?
Is it cheaper to buy oil, or steal it?
Thad,
1. What I remember about the middle east during the Reagan Administration, is the end to the hostage situation in Iran at the beginning of his first term. And us leaving Libya, and the president dropping bombs on Qdafe's palace in retaliation.
2. Yes, we considered some middle eastern countries a threat even in the late 70's.
3. What has changed is how we view the world and our place in it
4. No I have no memory of Iraq and Iran being allies. I remember the IraQ and Iran War, we backed Iraq and Russia backed Iran. I remember that doing the first Gulf War that Sadam sent his fighter jets to Iran when it was clear that we were going to attack or was that this time that he sent the planes to Iran?
5. I will let stand
I respectfully add my 2 cents
jo4Peace

Also, don't forget, many of the countries of the world have changed a lot themselves.

Ok, perhaps not allies, but business associates...!!!
Anyway, just between me & you, I'm supprised my "Bitches of Allah" remark wasn't censored..

If you thought it would be censored why type it?

Actually, their religious beliefs are in conflict with their religioius beliefs, as demonstrated almost daily by the problems between the various Moslem Sects in the Middle-East with each other.

Good Day Mz,
I would like to know Thad's reason why too! And not defending it because, I could have done without the Dogs of Allah comment, but it does point up the difficulty in censorship, it is impossible for bias not to creep in. Did it not get a warning because in the environment in which we operate this term is acceptable?
Respectfully
Jo4Peace

I didn't think that when I originally typed it... It wasn't until the "Feirinheight 451" episode when I thought; Oh Sh*#...!!!

Hi jo i did not say it would not get censored ,anything that breaks forum rule's will be removed and come to think of it that remark is breaking forum rule's.

Which remark, the first one? the second one? or, Jo's remark?

Back to the original topic - Force - no, afford the oportunity - yes

So which one is happening in Iraq.? Forcing, or affording the oppertunity, or affording the oppertunity we forced..?

Well, if you don't let the MSM cloud your thinking, that's easy -

we've given the Iraqi people the opportunity to initially set up a democratic form of government. How that evolves it up to them.

Ok, your right, if we were to pack up and leave them to their own devices... However, If we did (pack & leave) and they started to revert back to a non-democratic government (on their own), don't you think the U.S. would do what was necassary to tip the scales on behalf of democracy...? If so, is that not (in a sence) forcing democracy on them...?
Bush's Motto should be; Onward Christian Soldiers (Marching Off to War)....!!!!

The only way we can establish a peaceful world is to ensure that governments reflect the will of the people. The history of mankind so far certainly suggests that when this condition is not obtained, wars either internal (revolutions) or external break out. And while it does seem that some form of "democracy" is the best way to achieve this kind of peace and stability, whether this form is the same for all cultures and histories of different peoples is certainly debatable. If one imposes by force one form of democracy upon a people, one will surely see it, through the process of history, take on a "natural" and probably different form as a nation makes it its own.
Z

I agee with that, Z.

That gradual shake-out probably won't happen for quite a few years - possibly through a number of US Presidential Administratons.

Well put Z... I agree..., But don't you think forcefulness may cause resentment?

Or, could it be that liberation from tyranny will foster appreciation?

Good point, but don't you think religious beleifs play a big role in adapting the form of government deemed acceptable... I think Democracy is in conflict with many of the deep rooted ideals of the Muslim religion. (or so they seem to beleive)... Granted, we have many Muslims in the U.S., But are the Americanized Muslims considered fundamentalist (as are the majority of "Mid-East Muslims")
I just don't see Iraq adapting Democracy (as we know it).
Isreal, and Saudi Arabia's form of democracy is a far cry from ours..!

The imposition of any form of government upon a society certain can cause resentment, and if strong enough, will cause the society to reject that form without really "giving it a chance" and working through, however difficult or long the process, the problems any new form of organisation generally causes.
In the case of Irag, it might not end up a contradiction that the US is praised by Iragis for liberating it from a tyrant, while seen by the people as substituting a tyranny just as bad.
Lastly, it would seem from the example of Turkey, that if the Iragis accept the separation of religion from politics, and a secular state that embraces all of the Muslim and Christian sects, then there is a chance that some kind of democracy will take hold. We must remind ourselves in the case of Iraq, that Saddam's regime 'though tryannical was nevertheless secular in nature, so the concept is not foreign to its citizens.

Only a government that authentically reflects the condition of its citizens, their history, their beliefs, and their goals has any chance of maintaining itself.

Z

To borrow a quote from Lincoln's Gettysburg Address ...that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

Does this statement only apply to Americans?

Actually, even our forefathers were against "absolute power to the people"..!!!
Besides, who are we (a Christian nation) to decipher the will of a Muslim fundamendalist nation?

I find absolute... irony?... in the fact that we want to establish them as a "free" country, and yet we continue to force our ways down their throats.

We aren't forcing them we 're letting them choose what they want, that why they voted.

Isn't it wrong to force your beliefs on anyone?
Offer, present, and allow them to make their own minds up.
Isn't that what democracy is about in the first place?

Let's see, Iraq tried to steal it from Kuwait, you might want to ask Hussein that question. But if your trying to say the U.S. is stealing it I will challenge you to provide proof of your allegation.

Let's see, I do believe this little news item proves you wrong;

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/20...aq-voters_x.htm
The relatively smooth election and long lines of men and women who braved violence to vote bode well for the new Iraqi government. The turnout — estimates ranged up to 60% — will bolster the credibility of the Iraqi officials in Iraq and around the world.

With the threat of being killed if they voted 60% still turned out. Can you say the same for this nation without the threat of death?

Not EVEN business associates with Iran since Nov. 4, 1979, hey, that was under Carter, not Reagan. Get your history and dates straight.

Interesting, Thad, now please tell me how long we have been in Japan??? How long have we been in Germany??? Care to debate the reasons on both? And here you want to cut and run before the infant government has really got set up and running. Hey, THEY made THEIR OWN Constitution, not us. THEY VOTED on said Constitution, not US!

In those that had been in power, YES!!! To the neighbors that wanted to keep the status quo, YES. To the majority of the people that were oppressed, NO!!!

Looking at recent history, it is difficult to make any kind of blanket statement. If you consider India and Pakistan, both of which had democracy forced upon them during the British Raj, both of these nations now seem to appreciate its benefits. On the other hand, there are cases that show just the opposite: many of the colonised countries in Africa seem to have rejected democracy, but not without an awful price. I think we also need to remember that it is just not democracy as such, but its peripherals such as the rule of law, an efficient and independent civil service, etc., that must be implanted in a nation.
Z

Plus Japan has an Emperor for how many years??? And how long did it take them to adjust?? I believe people like to talk off the top of their heads without looking at history.

I am inclined to agree with samuel.

Other than whether or not the "people" of Iraq are really longing for Demcracy.

I realize that I am a very skeptic person when it comes to anything taking place with any forms leadership, as it has always been my experience with politicians, and my feelings about kings, sheiks, or czars, that they all tell bigger lies than I did when I was a kid.

Been to a number of campain dinners in my life, and those people have no clue to what goes on with the day to day working people. Oh, and the deals they make in private then announce to the public are many times 180% opposite from what we hear.

Then there is my dissolution with any historical prints.

Now I know you couldn't find here just how I was agreeing with samuel, but maybe this next statement will tie it all together.

It seems logical to me that you must be knowledgable about your history, so that you may draw conclusions from things in the past, so you can make better decisions for today. ( see I agree)

I am just not so nieve as to put 100% belief in any publication regarding historical facts, so I talk with the "VETS" who were there. I keep in personal touch with some of the politicians I don't trust, and I listen to people like SAMUEL before I come to any "absolute" conclusions.

I need the input from samuel, so that he can point out my miscontrued interpitations.

I am not the see all to end all, "blessed one", but I know I would like the opportunity to rule the world!

Yep, I would be ruthless in many areas, specially when it comes to crime and punishment. But I would also be the first to change my views when someone like samuel comes along to show me the errors in my logic.

So when you apply this to your vote, think about whether you should vote for someone set in their ways, or should you vote for someone who has the ability to see the mistakes in his line of thinking, and then is able to adopt to a better idea!

Love & Peace,
John

With 4000 US war dead, and 30,000 injured,I fail to see the importance of staying there.They no longer are a Military threat to anybody.IMO. I think it going to be another Vietnam,all over again. Why should the US regard it so important, to ram Democracy down their throats. The only invasion, I would be concerned about, is the one south of your Country.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops..._casualties.htm

I have to agree; "it's starting to look just like NAM", and just like "NAM" when we do pull out, it will be the biggest and strongest "BULLY" that will rule Iraq.

I would like to make one other point about the death and misery:

" REMEMBER IT"S NOT JUST OUR SERVICEMEN WHO ARE BEING KILLED AND DIABLED"

LET US NOT FORGET, THAT THE MOJORITY OF PEOPLE WHO SUFFER FROM THIS "WAR"
ARE MOSTLY INNOCENT UNINVOLVED CITIZENS, THAT ARE THE TARGET OF THESE SUICIDAL TERRORIST'S.

I still hate the word Democracy, but since that's the one everyone insists on uses, so be it (Wilson was the first President to use the term about the U.S. in 1919). How long had Japan had an Emperor? How long had Germany had one (Yes, I know all about the "Weimar Republic" from 1919 to 1933)? What are they both today? My opinion is that a set of values must first be implanted along with a national pride that surpasses tribal pride. Without both, all that will happens is the tribes will go right back to killing one another when we leave.

I think everyone is kind of losing the big picture. No matter what the war started out as - we are no longer fighting the war that started. We are not trying to convert the people of Iraq to Democracy all we are doing now is allowing them the opportunity to deside how they want to govern their country while all hell is breaking out all around them.

In the power vacuum that was left when Hussein was brought down, Al Qaeda moved in.

This entity has declard war on us, and the whole non-muslum world.

Certainly the situation is far different from what everyone fantasized when the Iraq Government was toppled, and major mistakes were made during the initial occupation, as Vicki writes. One can rehash all the "what-ifs" and "might-have-beens" but we are now confronted with a reality that is as complicated as it is unpleasant, and a nation in ruins as the result of our actions.

What the average Iraqi wants is the restoration of tranquility, of services, and the hope of a better life, or even of living tomorrow; we must convince them that this is possible and that this is our goal as well, and that this can be achieved by rule of law and some form of free, representative government. Without that common goal and common effort, we will continue to see US and Iraqi blood on the streets.
Z

Up until DEC 31 2003, when Saddam was captured, The US had approx 483 War Dead,and 2483 injured.
Just to try and bring stability to Iraq,that number has grown to a shocking 4000 dead and 30,000 injured.
I think this is too high a price to pay,to help a foreign country. There are trouble spots all around the World,and no one Country can be expected to bring peace everywhere,because it's not possible. I hope the US thinks very carefully about invading another Country, who is not a direct threat to the US.If this occupation goes on for a few more years,in Iraq, I shudder at the human cost. Terrorism cannot be stopped.Allways has been, and allways will be,IMO.

Let's put this in some kind of prospective, shall we??? We lost more than that in WW 2 in TRAINING exercises!!! Our goal is NOT to bring peace every where but we already ran out on these people once and you want to do it again??? Oh boy, that will REALLY develop trust in us around the world when we want the next bunch to rise up against their oppressor will it not?? And are you suggesting that we roll over and allow the terrorist to do what ever they want to do??? I shudder to think of the cost those of your mind set are willing to allow in the name of so called peace.

I see where your coming from, 'Samuel'. We all want peace and not let Terrorism win.
Scenario. Stay there for a few more years and set up stability. The US leaves Iraq. Great. 6 months later the Parliment is attacked,blown to bits and the President and Cabinet members killed. Rival Ethnic leader takes control.What does America do?
Return and lose another 4000 lives, till stability is regained,once more. I doubt it,to be honest. If your Allies thought for one minute it was a winnable war,then they would be fighting by your side still. You just don't get it.
Why leave all these hundreds of terrorist training camps, that we know of, untouched,instead of blowing them off the face of this Earth.Go for the root of the problem would be a start. Googled,training camps all over the World, especially in Africa,and I was amazed at the sheer number.

Okay, so what will the reality be, should we stay there for another; five, ten. twenty years?
Just like Vietnam, when we leave, the guys with the biggest guns, and most people will take over the country. PERIOD!
Then a number of years after that; just as in "Nam" we will once again re-establish trade with whom so ever might be in power!

The question once again becomes; who will be the terrorist leaders, and will they train their children to perform suicide acts agaisnt us.

IMO there are no defenses to protect anyone anywhere against terrorists!

Spending $460 billion dollars a year will never be able to stop some radical extremist from doing this:
first you get a bunch of shotgun shells
you open them up and set aside the b b's
now you get one can of childrens playdough clay
flatten the playdough out to form a disc 1 foot in diameter
place all the gun powder in the center
form a ball around the gun powder
place a wick in the top
light the wick
approach your target and die

We use to make our own M-80 firecrackers using this method, and given enough gun powder you can effectively kill yourself with a number of others around you.
That is what I-E-D's are all about.
Given how extreme these Muslim people are, there is no-amount of protection we can offer, that will prevent the suicide bombings taking place in Iraq.

These monies would be much better spent developing equipment able to sniff out the components of homemade bombs. Then even with this type of technology, the people who carry out such horrible acts. Will be satisfied with just getting to blow up the people who would be operating the equipment.

War's of this nature can never be won!
And those who would have us believe we are winning are out and out liars!!!!

We have not, and will not, be able to provide any security to those who are subject to such extremism. And if President Bush or any other leader of our nation has convinced you otherwise, well, shame on you.

We can not protect ourselfs from a kid who can't stand life anymore, and takes a gun to school.

You yourself can not protect yourself from and thug on the streets with a knife!

Why would you support a war, sacrificing your own father, mother, sons and daughters for a people who will go back to doing business as usual once we're gone???

I see many other topics here at "TV" where you would better spend your money.

Many many things, far and away more personally important than this WAR !

We are doing the same tragic things to the people of Iraq, that we did to the people of Vietnam.

We pray upon their hopes for a better life, we talk them into to helping us, (like interpeters for instance) and then we leave them there to face the people who hate our guts to exact their revenge!

The families of the people who have assisted us in Iraq are being slaughtered every day, and we aren't even trying to protect them.

So how can you believe it possible to bring peace to their country when we are unwilling to help those who have helped us?

Just because you drive around with a bumper sticker proclaiming your support for our troops doesn't mean that you haven't deserted them.

Just as you did to us "VIETNAM VETERANS"

Yeah this time you hug them and bless them when they have come home after serving their tour, but you do nothing to prevent "Uncle Sam" from sending us back for our second, third, or fourth tour.

Sure you are all up in arms about "Walter Reed Hospital" today. What about the dozens of other "Vet Hospitals" ?

Take the headlines off of us, and you go right back to sipping your mint julips and care nothing of us you have left behind closed doors!

I guess, I'm really venting now, because you guys won't even march in protest agaisnt this war, or even march for more troops in order to shorten this war!

Send over another million troops, and we can then call Iraq, "AMERICA ANNEX NUMBER ONE"

Heck when we have sucked up the last bit of oil, we will just pack our bags and go home anyway!

Now I will apologize for being so harsh.
I can only explain my anger this way; "many of us here have no right to even debate the issues of this war while we sit confortably in our homes, with full bellies and quenched thirsts!"

I am just as guilty of this as any of you!
I must be willing to get off this computer at times and voice my thoughts where they might just make a difference!

Someone here has got to know how to organize us someway. And together we will then be able
to do something other than just; "flap our gums" !

Hi John,

I'm going to have to disagree with you on a few points.

{{You yourself can not protect yourself from and thug on the streets with a knife!}}

Yes I can and have been doing it for the last 47 years. Knife fighting was the popular thing when I was in school but my parents wouldn't allow me to carry one so I had to become proficient at taking them away from the other guy.

{{We can not protect ourselfs from a kid who can't stand life anymore, and takes a gun to school.}}

We could if they allowed Teachers that have concealed carry permits to carry in school.

{{{We are doing the same tragic things to the people of Iraq, that we did to the people of Vietnam.}}}

Talked to to many of our troops that have been there, John, and the answer is, No, we are not!!! Already had one grandson there and he's going back again and few more are getting ready to join.

{{Take the headlines off of us, and you go right back to sipping your mint julips and care nothing of us you have left behind closed doors!}}

Not hardly, John, I was in the service before you were, remember? John, I deplore they way this Government ran the Vietnam war, but this one is being conducted differently. You would have to talk to those that were in both wars to understand what I'm talking about.

I apologize Samuel, forgot who reading these things besides me. Yep, I pity the guy who pulls a knife on me! Guess I was just speaking in general.

I see your point about arming the teachers, but who is going to police the police?
A teacher can become just as disgruntled with kids as kids can get with teachers.
I would be the first in line to re-institute paddling by principles and teachers.
" I never dared talk back to a teacher!"

I have listened to many of the returning "Vets" from Iraq, and the only distinction I have been able to see; is that they are just moving targets that occasionally get into a firefight.
In "Nam" we got many many hugs from the villagers who were horribly attacked for having allowed us to help them. Same in Iraq.

One of my best friends is a Captain in the U.S. Army. He is now a Tank Division Rear Commander. I repeat a Tank Division Rear Commander. The reason I repeated that was because here is a twenty four year old Captain that is leading an entire Division and now hold on to your hat: this kid is making over $7,500 a month. Good Lord that is $90,000 a year!!!! I only hit that income level once while driving trucks for Jeep and that was with a heck of a lot of overtime! He works on average; 2,500 hours a year, and that's only five hundred more than a guy working forty hours a week.
Man sign me up! Even the grunts make over $2,000 a month. Then you include overseas pay, hazordous duty pay, clothing, food, and everthing.
Show me a job where highschool grads can start out making that kind of money for some company here!
By the way, I was all patriotic when I enisted also!

HERE IS A CHANCE FOR ANYONE WHO IS SQUEAMISH TO SKIP THIS PART

The only time "Captain" killed anyone he told it to me, it went like this: " I looked through the nightvision sights. They lit up on the screen and I pulled the trigger and they fell down ".

The first time I killed anyone: I was pinned down with the rest of my platoon, and I saw a guy with a gun fire on, and hit "Too Tall Johnson" who was not too far from me. Got him in the shoulder.( I left out his first name on purpose)
I aimed at my enemies head, fired, and watched his head snap rearward from the strike of the of of my round. My "ENEMY" couldn't have been more than fourteen years old.
The worst part of this memory is: I was elated for getting my first kill, and my buddies threw me a party back at base.

Yeah I was "Gung Ho " when I was fighting for peoples rights not to be overrun by communists. But I now know personally, that they are doing better today than at any time we were proctecting them from "The Evil Reds" !

I know that I have becomed jaded.
And it has become my opinion that anyone who has served in both wars either; cannot make it in civilian life, or is a warmonger and likes what he or she does for a living.
So while I support your grandsons dedication, I do not support this war.

And before you question my patriotism; " I too would have pulled another tour, had I not been shot twice and blown up once!!!
And they way the public treats our vets.
While they are all so good at patting us on the back when we are laying there in the hospital and the news camera's are all around us, but once the band pulls away with the wagon, the public goes with them!

I go to the Vet Hospital as often I can. When I visit with Vets from WWII and Korea, and Vietnam. They lay there in some pretty nasty surroundings and now a lot of then don't even have their families coming to visit anymore!
Oh! everyone gets all up in arms over the condition of WALTER REED with it's paint peeling off the ceilings, but as quick as the evening news goes on to other headlines, the public is no-longer interested in VETS!

Sorry to vent this to you, being that your also a Vet, but I have had all the recognition from the "PUBLIC" that I will ever want! ( I was lumped in with all the other "BABY KILLERS" even though I had received three purple hearts!)
Yeah even my mom and dad never visited me in the hospital. I was at San Franciso Vet Hosp. and they lived in Mich.
But that's another story.

Hi John,

I know what you mean about the Army pay of today. When I joined (now I'm going to go dating myself) as an E-1 we got $74. a month, as E-2 it was $84. and month, E-3 was $99. a month, E-4 was $128. a month and with 2 years longevity we got $178. a month, and here's the BIG one, as E-5 we got $224. a month. Now for those that are a little slow at adding and E-3 made a total of $1188 a year, I have made more than twice that in a week working Construction.

My dad was a disabled Vet of WW 2, John, so I know the conditions of the V.A. hospitals. He was in and out of them the majority of my life but considering when, where, and under what conditions he grew up under he felt that he was treated magnificantly.

I know what you mean about the public's memory problems too. But those of us that served remember every day don't we, John.

Yep! both good and bad.
I made $197 a month at E-3 didn't stay long enough to get any more than that.
I actually had an old "Gunny" visit me while I was at "Pendleton" during my hospitalazation.
He chastized me for never learning to "DUCK" LOL

I agree with the majority of this post, but I wanted to point out that the ease with which IEDs can be made, and the variety of methods, would make spending money to "sniff out the components of homemade bombs" pretty useless as well. When someone can use shotgun shells and playdough, or a million other methods, the detection will always be extremely hit-and-miss. The improvised nature of these bombs means one device will likely be very different from another in design and chemical content. A far better approach would be to remove the targets from the presence of potential IEDs.