Thought a new thread would be better than distracting from the original intent of one of our other topics: Religion > Revelation: End Times (http://www.thoughtvent.com/forums/add-reply-f15-to21.html), but I did want to comment on a couple posts within that thread.

This is not intended as a personal attack on anyone, rather a huge sadness on my part that so often assumptions are made by those that consider themselves ‘the’ one with an “accurate understanding of God’s message”.

(Quote) “I keep replying because he's ignorant of what the Bible says. He's familiar with a bit of it, but has never studied it has never made sense of any of it” (Unquote)

I wonder how one makes assumptions like this. Priests, Ministers, Clergymen, Nuns – all these groups and more have people who have walked away from their Faith. And surely each of them had, often for a lifetime before making this decision, an “accurate understanding of God’s message”, studied the Bible and was far from ignorant of what it said.

Religion is right for many but for many others they have chosen to stop believing. Not suddenly nor based on ignorance or lack of understanding of God’s message’, rather based on an intelligent choice – for them.

There is a huge, HUGE difference between ignorance (lacking knowledge of a particular subject or misunderstanding of that subject) and intentional neglect of accurate understanding because one choses a different course. You're quoting me in the above post and there is no need to protect me from my own words. I'm ignorant of many things, my limited education means I'm constantly reading up on things I don't quite understand and many of them I never will because I don't have the time to spend on learning fully the things I find interesting. You are the same way, so is MattV and so is every other participant in this forum, all other forums, in fact every human is ignorant in one one way or another about most things. That's what makes learning so enjoyable for most of us!

From a Christian point of view, ignorance of God is all around us just as we are ignorant of many, many things. Some chose to lead lives in accord with God's laws even though they have limited knowledge of all of God's wonders, others know God very well and chose to disobey (Satan the Devil, the Pharisees of Jesus' time, Judas Iscariot, and the first human Adam just to name a few). Ignorance does not make one wicked just as accurate knowledge does not make one unrighteous from God's perspective.

As for my understanding of God, his purpose for mankind, his reasons for creating us, why he permits wickedness and ignorance of him to continue on, this knowledge continues to improve on a weekly, monthly and yearly basis. Is my understanding today the completely accurate comprehension of all things about God that they can be, never requiring further study and deeper learning in that area... of course not. Do I believe though that I'm on a better path then someone who does not recognize God, Yes!. Do I believe I'm on a better path then someone who does not recognize the Bible as God's message to his creation. Yes. If I didn't believe these things, I wouldn't spend my time in study of the Bible.

As for reasons why people walk away from their faith in God, that has nothing to do with weather their knowledge of God was accurate or not. Many have witnessed the hypocrisy of their religion and have left. Some have misunderstood something and have left. Others could not get answers to simple questions about God from their religious leaders and left. Some wanted to get a divorce and when their religion forbade it, they changed the religion of the country they ruled and made for themselves a new religion that fit into their wants (the Brits know whom I speak of). Most of these persons reasons for leaving their faith had little or nothing to do with ignorance.

As for my "assumption"... and the accuracy of my personal understanding of God, I need to keep studying, keep learning and keep readjusting my current understanding to conform to the truth about God. My concern here is not weather it's right for me... but weather it's right for God.

Once again i see something that i don't really want to reply too ,but i will.
Besides the bible and religious writings can you tell me how you know these people where ever real?
how do you know adam was the first human ?how do you know satan is real?need i go on.
In my opinion i could write a book tommorow about FREDour saviour and in a couple of thousand years everyone will worship him.
I am sorry but i believe God is a pure myth ,if he is real where is he?
Man wrote the bible not god .
And to be honest most authors these days would do better job writing scripture.
While i have read the bible to me its book of stories.
And while i commend people for having blind faith,i find that need to believe very disturbing and when ihave more time i will elaborate on it.
If jesus is our saviour why do people who worship him lose young family members ?why does he not save them?

If you're asking for me to present to you in some amalgamated format the culmination of my 20+ years of my personal study and research, and provide for you the references both Biblical and secular to provide for you this "proof" that has convinced me?.... I cant. I don't have the time to do that while caring for my family and my life. I can direct you to what you'll need to do to acquire such knowledge but weather you will accept it as "proof"... I can't say.

I'm glad you've read the Bible. I've read Shakespeare. I'm sure you'll agree with me that reading and understanding are two different things.

As for some of the things that convinced me that the Bible is God's word:

- It's historical accuracy as supported by archeology and writings of non-Biblical persons
- the fulfilled prophecies and their detail
- the honesty and openness of the writers, how they listed not only their successes but also their failures
- the internal harmony of the Bible, one message penned by 40+ persons over a period of 16 centuries.
- and the fact that the Bible is not a scientific book, but whenever it comments on scientific matters, it is always correct.

Those are just some of the factors, not just any one of them... but all of them together that have convinced me that there exists a creator, that he cares for us, and that his purpose for creating us in the first place was not to suffer and die.

The assumption that anything in the Bible is in any sense a communication from God is added to by the assumption that there is only ONE accurate and true interpretation, and that interpretation is in the hands of the person so assuming.
All of these are assumptions, and all of them are dubious to say the least.
Z

You assume that God does not exist therefore your assumption prevents you from acknowledging that anything could exist as a result of some action on God's part.

Your assumption is just as religious as mine, though some seem to take offense when I compare the two.

On this point we agree. I'm constantly researching things that have piqued my interest. Hell, I'm nearly fifty, and I'll be starting college soon!

What of those that never had any? Never believed in the existence of a deity? It seems as though the vast majority think that belief in a deity is hardwired into our brains. It's not. We are born with absolutely no innate abilities or abstract knowledge at all. A human being's brain is like a brand new hard drive - empty - when born. A newborn chipmunk instinctively knows, at birth, where to go to feed. A baby does not. Without the intervention of another, it would simply starve to death. Everything we know we have learned. Everything. And our emotional responses to different things are colored by what we have been taught. Simple causality. Something that our Western culture has taught us is abhorrent might simply be part of another people's culture. When Christianity was inflicted upon this continent, the missionaries and "decent" people were horrified to see women going about their business with their breasts exposed!! And much of the Puritanism that was introduced by the invaders still manifests itself in our society today. I mean think about it - people shooting each other and blowing each other up; blood, brains, guts all over the floors, walls, furniture and landscape, or a couple making love to one another. The first is OK for kids to watch at the Saturday Matinee, but the other is obscene?!?* Seems like a seriously skewed system of "values" to me.


And if you come to the conclusion that they are one and the same... "A difference that makes no difference, is no difference".

Right?


* Now, thanks to the I-net, they can watch both.

Corollary:

You assume that "God" does exist, therefore, your assumption prevents you from acknowledging that anything could exist as a result of some action by anything but "God".


Interesting...

Not picking here. Just comparing two equally valid statements.

On the contrary...

I don't believe God is responsible for everything. I believe God's given mankind the ability to pick and chose what we will say and do, hence Adam had a choice to make, follow God's direction and let him chose what is "right and wrong" for mankind or make that decision himself. Adam chose to live independent of God's moral laws. Today's problems such as crime, violence, sickness and death exist as the result NOT of God's making but of mankinds independent of God.

Trust me if they did that it was by no means a intelligent choice....

I mean no disrepect to you but your above words are difficult.

For it takes Faith, lots and lots of Faith, to believe in God. And faith, for many, is not based on intelligence.

And it can be an intelligent choice for many to walk away from faith - or for that matter, to choose to never have it. Once again assumptions are being made as it's
okay that the opposite is your opinion but it's difficult when it's stated as a fact.

It seems to me that an honest, diligent, and authentic desire to search for the truth involves the difficult and very brave task of "bracketing" all that one has believed to be true at the very beginning of the journey. Like Descartes, one must initially doubt everything, establish criteria for what one can then accept as clearly and distinctly true, and then test one's beliefs and ideas against those rules.

Z

Yes. A belief that isn't based on being open minded and researching for oneself is surely simply a belief based on other people's opinions. We must perhaps always remember that leaders, religious or other, are humans and as such are apt to put their own 'slant' on things.

I've always found it odd that if one takes one sect of Christianity only and asks each leader of his or her congregation for an interpretation, one is apt to get an entire range of interpretations. Ergo, to accept only one as the 'truth' is to accept that the human saying so is 'superior and above' all others that have studied the same Bible. (Again, speaking of these within the same sect).

I read the bible that says there are 2 powers in the world - God and Satan. And every individual belongs to either God or Satan in the spirit sense no in betweens. Satan's demons are free to do what he wants to unbelievers, and if one is a believer, God has a standard of holiness esp he is very guarded on the 1st commandment from what I know and have observed. Example, when bad things happen to other goodChristians, everyone is like why why why. Others just keep quiet. In our country (unlike USA and the west or europe), we are fortunate to have people to will come to God in all night prayer and fasting and ask god for answers - and God is faithful and answers each time. We had this Christian friend couple, so "Christian", even I couldn't compare, but their only child was born with a cleft pallate. If you know Jesus personally, you'd know he didn't do that but I demanded from God day and night why he allowed the devil to do this. After 10 months, God show me a vision that when they got married, they had gone thru a Hindumarriage ceremony and bowed down to idols and the spirits had ruled the marriage since then. (you probably notice Hinduism with much associated with deaf and dumb spirits Refer India). I asked them and they admited because the guy was afraid of his father. This was timely because the child was not eating, on drips etc and as soon as they asked jesus to forgive them, renounced what they did, you should see the child now...Revelation from God are P+C , so until today their Christians friends are like "Why did God allow?

there was this real godly woman(she was not pretending) and had breast cancer. She asked God why, the pastors asked, the members asked because we just knew she really loved jesus. (Christians believe sin is an open door for the devil) and yet we knew there was something she must have done because jesus will not allow this on his people. Finally God revealed thru vision dancing scences from Bollywood films. Apparently, the dancing movements had "lustful" meanings (like classical Indian dance that has meanings in each m'ment) and it transferred onto her. We later asked her and she said she watched Bollywood films esp the dancing 4-5 hours daily. We cast out the lustful spirit and she was healed. Of course being P+C, the whole church was like "Why did God allow this" 100X When there is sin, the devil can do what he wants. .

The Achehs are the worst of killers. They dragged american Christian children thru the streets till they die and leave them there. Did God send tsunami to punish them? NO, their sin allowed the devil to do this. On a flight from israel to SE Asia, our itinery pastor prayed and beside him was another also praying fervently. Our pastor was delighted and after a while, this guy casually says he's a Satan worshipper, their organisation is praying and had fasted 40 days just on water to bring earthquakes for 2007. He actually said "May the best man win". All these may sound "unbelievable, this is inot hearsay. I was there on all the above occasions.

Every case that comes to us for prayer on "why did God allow", there is always some sort of sin invloved. Sometimes I'd say to God, Huh, this one is different. Completely holy. Why did you allow. And God has never failed to reveal "hidden sin". I myself am suprprised hoe we humans can give such a "godly" front to our friends but behind....I am not an exception too because we live in a fallen world that belongs to Satan today.

Just so I understand this correctly ...

When bad things happen to people, including infants and children, it's because they or their parents have sinned?

Oops, nearly forgot ...

(Quote) "I read the bible that says there are 2 powers in the world - God and Satan. And every individual belongs to either God or Satan in the spirit sense no in betweens.". (Unquote).

Hmmm. Surely it's not mean that people such as myself who do not believe in God "belong to Satan"?

I was trying to answer mz30 on his question why people to worship jesus lose family members and He does not save them. I presume he is wondering why Jesus just keeps quiet about it and so I trying t say, if you are His child (Jesus) and compromise on His Word, it is an open door for the enemy to work on your lives,

If he had worded his question as you did (general), I would not have contributed a specific reason as to MZ30. Briefly, to your question, Chrisians do believe all sickness comes from Satan, so an unbeliever can lose a child even with all the good works (charity, godliness) that he practices simply because he hasn't any covering from God.

Okay, I hope Matt is not going to bombard me. Generally, when I write, I am writing from a Christian belief and viewpoint. It is okay , isn't it?

Yes, of course it's okay to write from a Christian belief and viewpoint - but it does help when we are discussing things such as thing to perhaps add 'in my opinion' - gentle smile.

Although I realize it's not intended as such, try to imagine how reading this (your) viewpoint must make someone who has had a loved one die, especially a small child. Sigh.

Thanks, I will be sure to put in "In my opinion" in future. Ref about children dying, we have this in our church too but the 2 cases I was involved in, it was later revealed the father had "backslidden" as a Christian in a bad bad way (in this, some Christians believe when all else don't work, sometimes God allows this to bring his children back to Him), and aother was a medium (like a witch doctor) who later backslidden a little and immediately all the demons he kept came over his 6year old.
Just to share...

BTW, sorry if I offended anyone. I don't write in forums, I just wanted to share with matt on the gospel and ended up here and there and everywhere

I missed reading this abve part earlier....Because I am a Christian, I take the Bible at its Word, so I do believe what it says. Again, I speak spiritually, so biblically it's either jesus or the other. In my opinion, that's why Christians are forcing jesus into non-believers because we believe no matter how good a person, one just has to accept jesus to gain eternal life. Just my belief. I'm not jugding anyone, pls believe me.

From all that I have heard about "God" from Believers, allowing people to be born with incurable, fatal diseases, that they have to suffer through years of existence with before it finally kills them, just doesn't match of with the "loving, kind, just, merciful" qualities ascribed to "God". It's been my experience that if it looks and smells like BS, then it's a good bet that it is BS. And I grew up on a farm, so I know BS.

Hmm, God is loving merciful etc, but if you had read the whole bible, there is the other side of God, a "Holy" God. I admit a lot of Christians compromise (look at the US), if I were an unbeliever there, I'd probably not want to be a Christian but a wise elder told me 6 years ago, "If you look at other Christians, you might fall out, so keep your eyes on jesus always)" I've even heard of an evangelist that said "When you see a Christian, RUN!!!". I've had my fair share too, so keeping on Jesus will hold us on to the faith. I presume you've encountered too many Christians to feel the way you do??...

Anyway, back to a loving mercifull all wonderful God, refer to revelations, Jesus comes as a Judge back to this world, not lovey dovey. Salvation and grace are free but not cheap.

Hi Michelle,I respect your opinions and beliefs,however my opinion of your posts, is that each one is getting more weird.
To make these outlandish statements re demons came over a 6 year old is in my opinion utter tripe,if you can't provide any proof. I think your posts are offending to any rational thinking human being.
I lost a Sister at 1 year old and my Parents were clean living Christians,so to say they sinned, and it's their punishment is beyond belief. My Sister is still in her grave and her soul has gone nowhere,unless you can provide common sense proof to the contrary.

EDIT. Spelling of contrary.

Hi DSTM,

I am sorry to hear the loss of your sister. Because the title of the thread is such, I just presume we can speak our mind and share opinions, I certainly wasn't targeting at anyone, just sharing whatever I've experienced. I come from Asia, what I share is not weird or far fetched, I could never proof it in black and white, the only way I can proof their existence and they can live in people is to actually bring you into a church that cast out demons. If your parents were Christians, wouldn't have they believed in the spirit world of angels and demons? (just curious, no offence meant)

I could never say why that happened to your sis (was she one or you one?) because I was not there to pray/fast to get revelation but if she were a child, we do believe children go to be with the Lord. We do not believe her soul remains in the grave (again, this is just my opinion and belief)

I am just sharing things that are made more real here in churches that fast/pray 24 hours compared to the west, when their pastors come, there isn't a shred of annointing (so you can imaging his lack of prayer when not in the limelgiht), ....a lot of things of darkness can come out to the open when there is fervent prayer and fasting.

....however, if you think I'm too much, I will get off.

Hi again 'Michelle' Your last post is more realistic, as you have softened your approach,and saying what you believe in,which is interesting to read. Your opinions are as important as anyone elses. As long as they don't hurt anyone's feelings,then I haven't a problem with your Posts.As previously stated,by saying "In my opinion,or This is what I believe" makes all the difference,and you are not implying we are all Dummies,because other Members don't believe as you do. This is only my personal opinion,and does not reflect other Moderators Views. Hope this helps. Look forward to your posts.

Hi DSTM,

If I was hard before, I never realised it (sorry again) and I didn't realise my approach was softer this time.. infact, I was quite afraid you were going to be offended again....phew, glad you were not

Yes, if you read backward a little, Mara had suggested I put "just my opinion" , and I really intended too, maybe I forgot in a couple of sentences. I will make an effort to remember.

That aside, I love Mara's comments on this thread and others. Doesn't she write very maturely and very sensibly (unlike me. Though in my opinion , I am not writing crap but English is my 3rd language, so I can't express well). A great moderator too!! (in another thread)

Oh dear, I didn't realise you were a moderator till I posted the last post. I wasn't comparing you or Mara or moderators or anything like that. Okay, I'm going to scoot for today (perhaps my eyes are tired) before I make another blunder....sorry everyone , it's a mess

Christians I have no problem with. The "Christians" are the ones that can raise my ire. By "Christians I mean those that call themselves so, but whose actions belie their words.

I always think it is a good practice (and I do try to follow it myself most of the time), Michelle, to read over what I have typed before I hit "add reply" and consider how most people would interpret it. I have very often softened my words so as not to offend or "put down" opinions with which I disagree.
You will note that many Moderators take part in the discussions in the forums and for the most part, they do so not as Moderators but as Members like yourself. Should they do so as Moderators, then this is clearly indicated by their use of their title beneath there name or other means.
Thoughtvent encourages frank and open discussion of any and all topics, but does remind everyone to be mindful to avoid anything like a personal attack, or remarks designed to be inflammatory or hurtful.
I look forward to reading your future posts.
Zarathustra
Global Moderator

You know Zarathustra, DSTM comments on my posts getting weirder quite hit me because I never meant it to be. I made sure I mentioned that I was a Christian and becos of that, I speak from the bible because as a Christian, I believe in the Bible. After my final post, I saw another thread when Seafox went straight to the point to confirm that hell is eternity. I'm wondering how is it everyone is find with someone telling them once in hell, they have no chance of coming out (he did not have to say "in my opinion" etc) but when I say something from the bible that also clearly says demons can live in people, that is not acceptable. I have read thru my posts today and noticed I was sharing experiences here but I cannot find even one post of mine that was attacking or hurting someone. If someone had someone die and cannot accept my post, why is there no one telling Seafox "there might be non-Christians there...so you're saying we are all going to hell forever?"

Like I said, I don't write well with English being 3rd language but I'm sure if I had written what Seafox wrote (nothing personal Seafox, I just wonder why I'm being bombarding) I just know someone will say I've gone really weird. I don't think you guys are fair.

Oh dear,

We have a sister-site called BleepingComputers and in the religious threads there, I assure you that most of us (myself included) and even our SeaFox have 'crossed the line' - gentle smile.

I truly admire you doing so well with English as your third language - wonderful! And I hope I can clarify a couple things that may help a bit.

Most of the debates/arguments we have are based on various interpretations of the Bible and how it applies to both Christians and non-believers around them.

While I can't speak for the other members here, I was pleased when you amended this statement, "every individual belongs to either God or Satan in the spirit sense no in betweens", to read 'in my opinion. But even that is a bit difficult to deal with as while each is entitled to their opinion - yup, including you Michelle - gentle smile - it's a tad bad form to say so many of our members here "belong to Satan".

And again, only speaking for myself, with regard to, "their only child was born with a cleft palate ... I demanded from God day and night why he allowed the devil to do this ... they had gone through Hindu marriage ceremony and bowed down to idols" ... I do wonder how it is everyone who has a Hindu ceremony doesn't have children born with a cleft palate. Or why a 'merciful' God would not be ticked at the parents and let Satan do something nasty to them, rather than an innocent child.

And please know I am not "bombarding" you when I say that I found it a bit odd that "lustful spirit from watching Bollywood films" caused a lady to have breast cancer. Why would not all who watch Bollywood films develop cancer or some other horrible and nearly always fatal disease?

But that aside, this train of thinking seems to place all the blame for death (including babies dying) and disease and physical malformities as someone's 'fault'. While I believe that is your honest opinion, it must be very hard, for instance, for a member fighting cancer or alzheimer's, etc to know that there are people who actually believe them personally to be at fault.

I do hope this has helped a bit to clear things up, Michelle - I'm sure you have the best of intentions but sometimes even with the best of intentions we inadvertently hurt others perhaps?
- - - - -
Oops, nearly forgot to provide the link to 'Interpretations of the Bible' here at our ThoughtVent. Perhaps other Christians share your understanding of Faith?
http://www.thoughtvent.com/forums/How-do-Y...Bible-t638.html

I guess to put it in a nutshell, I was answering mz30's question why God allows bad things to happen to His people esp children etc so I was specifically answering about Christians because mz30's question was about God's people. The non-believers' were really out of the picture. If certain Christians had been upset, I would understand but I wonder why non-believers are bombarding me. If you read Seacox's post carefully (again, nothing personal sir. I'm just trying to make a point), he is saying you choose where you go and God will send you where you have chosen. he further says that is why the good news is given - the Gospel. Isn't it obvious then that if this good news is not accepted, non-believers of Jesus/the gospel are going to hell . And mind you, Seacox stresses "eternally". No way out. Shouldn't that call for Zara, DSTM to say something because it applies to them? (Now I'm sure I'm going to get it from Zara, DSTM but wait a minute, I am just repeating what Seacox wrote). In my opinion, non believers can watch all the Bollywood they want, bow down to all the 8000 Hindu idols that exists and still have a great life. Why would Satan want to touch you here when he's already got you
in hell for eternity (okay, I just know I'm going to get it but if I read Seacox's post , isn't that what's being put across....the gospel is the good news and the way to heaven- so you make your choice - gospel is heaven, no gospel is hell eternity.

When you guys talk about hurt feelings, it does not hurt to have someone say that's why we have the good news (gospel) so we can get to heaven???Indirectly it's saying people like Matt is going to hell right? But I see no one saying anything to Seacox , probably because this hell story is so ancient, you've all gotten so used to it and in all probablity, don't believe it. The same here, if you don't believe what I wrote, why would it hurt that person? I had babies die in my family too. Am I going to write DSTM and tell him to soften up and not imply the babies and their souls and still in their graves andhave nowhere to go?? Well, that's probably the worst thing you could tell anyone compared to all I've said in all my posts.
But you don't see me doing that. In fact, a thread like this allow us to broaden our knowledge how different humans think about all aspects of religion. So I just found out some people think body and soul lies in the grave. That was interesting revelation, not hurting. I think some of you out there are just trying to catch anyone who goes overboard but this is not a normal forum/thread (why would you call it ThoughtVent then), so let everyone write freely unless it's a personal attack on another member. (Now, if someone said something now, I'd accept it cosI'd used names in this post but not all previous posts). Cheers

Hi michelle

As you where responding to my post ,i thought i would reply
I am sorry that you think the that the moderators are being unfair
So before i get back to the topic can i please echo zarathustra's post .




I cannot speak for the rest of the staff but i am guessing that they would have made them post's regardless of their position,please believe me when i say that we are a friendly community and enjoy reading and replying to all posts.

So with that out the way my question with religion has always sort of revolved around my relatives
(aunt and uncle to be precise)they are lovely people ,they go to church daily(i think),they go to the vatican twice yearly and live a very religious life,However my aunt has had both breast's removed due to cancer ,there son was murdered and the daughter nearly died of alcaholism,so can you tell me how these people who devote there lives to god can be struck with such bad luck?.

look forward to your reply

Hi mz30,

Nice to hear from you. I will try to be very very careful how I write so as not to offend you too....If I do, please know I just want to share my experiences and belief in my part of the world, it might not be true for anybody else. So whenever I post, though I believe in what I post, I am not implying "I'm right, you're wrong".


You said they go to the vatican? Are they Catholics? If they are, I can only speak from my bible when I say this - a person needs to be reborn to know jesus personally n understand Christianity in the spirit sense (not intellect) and catholics are not reborn. Reborn Christians (I think you call them protestants) in my part of the world (China,Spore, S E Asia, Korea) do not acknowledge Catholics as Christians (the west too even though they don't say it outloud ), so because I am a re-born Christian, I will follow their stand. Catholics in defense tell the world protestants exists because th England King needed to divorce and remarry. And our bibles are not complete, and we are not the "original authentic" Christians that they are and we don't hit back except to tell them to be re-born. So anybody, please don't hit on me. With that, I am unable to answer your questions mz30, but may I further share my opinion below.....


Going to church everyday doesn't necessarilly mean one is having close communion with God. Taking H/Comm every week doesn't mean u r having a personal relationship with Jesus.
( Smile)....visiting the vatican doesn't make a person more religious (how different is this from the Muslims and mecca then). Pushing and shoving and rushing and saving all your hard earned $ to shake the Pope's hand doesn't give you more blessings (it only boosts the ego, doesn't it?- being able to tell one's neighbours and the whole workplace one shook the pope's hand.) A true Christian will realise the Pope is just like you and me.....people have set him high, not God. he is not to be exalted (just my opinion). So mz30, you can't look at a nice church going person and say he/she is religious. I mean, how do you know what went behind closed doors and minds - only God does and sometimes he reveals His own people's sins out (like evangelists n worship singers etc) . My dad did all the above but had a nude magazine in his workbag everyday. My religious Catholic hairsylist does all these but fantazies about sex with his lady boss and another devout all covered up Catholic friend imagines sex with pakistan's cricket players.
The diffrence would be, a re-born will know it is wrong in God's eye, a non-reborn can't see what the big deal is. "Just imagine you know, not real..." that's what I hear.
I'd say another difference would be (my opinion again) the reborn just knows and knows and knows what the Bible says is true and the other just believes till something shakes them up. My Catholic maint officer played a joke in the catholic church after xmas Mass. he ran to the hospitality room and announced to everyone "actually jesus never raised from the dead. he really died!!" EVERYONE started to convey this new found revelation to everyone else on other floors, nobody stoppedto question. Very funny (even I laughed hard) but very very sad isn't it. (if you get it. I suppose Seacox n CrazyDwarf get what I mean).

My mother was Catholic, she died in a road accident. She went to church everyday, never missed Sunday, very religious....but you know what, when I was reborn I realised she was no different from any other religion - RITUALS RITUALS RITUALS. She never sat on her sofa to talk to chit chat to God, she never shared a joke with God, she never waited upon Him to answer her, she just never knew Him as her friend and she most certainly didn't know the Holy Spirit as a real person. It was sad with all her "religion" (like all her Catholic community), she never met God in the real sense. He was just a "God" that needed to be respected and could grant you wishes thru Novenas and forgive sins thru the correct numbers of Our father and Hail Mary recited. That was her life in the religion sense. And I think if you told her the above, she'd have believed!


Doing these things don't make one a Christian mz30. You can just go to church weekly or monthly and if you're in communion with god everyday, now that's Christianity. You know, feeling the Holy Spirit , having God speak to you (you hear but it's not audible).

On another note, if your cousin nearly died ond alcoholism, if she had read the bible and understood it even in the literal sense, it says we are to be caution not to get drunk and even says "drunkards go to hell". A re-born will drink and restrain or not drink at all if he can't handle it. I go to Catholic funerals of drunks that died and there is a constant assurance from the priest the deceased is in heaven. I go to potestant churches and they say the bible say "......(I think u know what) but Jesus is the ultimate judge". Just sharing the bible should be read and obeyed. Most certainly not commenting on your cousin.

I am sorry to hear about your cousin who was murdered. I wish my mum was a re-born Christian who knew how to biblicly (think spelling wrong) apply God's protection when she went out of her home. I sure your cousin didn't either.

mz30, you asked for proof that Satan exists? Do you really believe there's no Satan? I was not a Christian all my life you know (only 6 yrs actually), and like all Aseans, was heavy int the occult/charms /etc. I tell you there is a guaranteed method he will appear before you .... it is very very difficult to shake him off once invited. Anyway, a Myammar/ietnam black magic priest came to speak at our church. He is now a Christian ad evangelist thru his testimony. Hhis story is interesting (nothing heavy, quite funny). If you like, I can post you a vcd of it and some others but I will need your address. Smile.

Finally, Im so sorry to anyone if anything I've written is out of line....

Not to me it isn't, since "hell", "heaven", "God" and "Satan" all have one thing in common - they don't exist.

So I'm "doomed" to a fairy-tale. Ask me how much that bothers me.

We must try to remember that English is her third language. So what she writes may not always be exactly what she is trying to say.

I am truly sorry that your Mom has died, Michelle.

Your reply sounds like it isn't obvious that that is what Seacox is saying (isn't that what Matt is saying, anyone?) )In that case in my opinion (so you can't hit me He He) your ability to grasp what people say is poor. I was in a blunt way what Seacox meant, what has it got to do with your not believing God exists. You need to read my post in full context.

See what I mean everyone, that was what Seacox said right , but nobody said anything. You mean just because Seacox didn't put your name in, you actually thought he meant you'e going to heaven?

I noe realise is thread is all about say what's in your mind but say "indirectly" so even if it means what it means, eveyone makes "don't know" . But if you word it straight to the point (still, with the same meaning), that's not acceptable.

Either that or Matt, you are not getting my point at all about my post on Seacox post. I was talking about being hit you know, I wasn't talking about heaven hell god exist etcetc when I mentioned Seacox.

Smile....well, I do have a Cambridge London degree you know. I speak 11 languages and write in 5. I probably write real fast here so I admit to many grammer and mistyped words. My apologies. (I'm also reading and typing without my contact lenses the past week, so life is a bit difficult when you're "partially" blind)

What I wrote is what I meant to say. Obviously you can't grasp my meaning taling into consideration in your 2nd last and 3last posts, you are replying to my post about God existing when the post was an example (Seacox's post) presented to enquire what such a heavy statement as that is not hit upon. put forwardYou just can't grasp the meaning. Matt, I'm laying this down. I've seen how Dwarf explains things to you and how you turn and twist him all around till he need to explains what he exactly means...I'm not falling for that dear. Cheers

I don't always follow multiple-quote posts very well. Especially when it's late. Which is about the only time I have when I can be reasonably sure of not being interrupted or distracted. Although it doesn't really matter, since my response to the question doesn't change, no matter who is saying or paraphrasing it.

Thks Mara, you are so kind.

No, not at all. Any promises of "heaven" or threats of "hell" are wasted on me, since I know that neither exist.

You seem to be feeling somewhat persecuted, and I don't believe that that was anyone's intent. That's why I posted the reminder to people that your use of English may not always convey quite what you meant it to. Coming to your defense, as it were.

Sorry. Won't do it again.

Michelle, for Protestants to deny that Catholics are Christians is impossible. To deny the reality of the base religion is to deny the reality of its sub sects. Aside from that we (Christians) must learn that its not the few who have accecpted Christ as Savior who are seen as Christians its every Bible thumping drunken hobo,and The Bakers and Jim Jones's of the world who share this label (whether rightly or wrongly, its not my call)

And I shall tell you this. When people make claims that they can't back up, or that fly in the face of proven fact, or insist that their way is the only way, simply because they say it is, I will stand in opposition to them. Especially the arrogant ones that have all the answers because they say they do.

Now, shocking as this may be to you, I've had some good exchanges with a few of my "adversaries" through the use of PMs. I've come to a little better understanding of them and, hopefully, they of me. If you really want to have a discussion, rather than continue in an arena-style free-for-all, my door's always open.

To say that Satan is responsible for every problem we face would be to dismiss God's Word on the matter.
Ecclesiastes 9:11-12 (New King James Version)
I returned and saw under the sun that—

The race is not to the swift,
Nor the battle to the strong,
Nor bread to the wise,
Nor riches to men of understanding,
Nor favor to men of skill;
But time and chance happen to them all.
12 For man also does not know his time:
Like fish taken in a cruel net,
Like birds caught in a snare,
So the sons of men are snared in an evil time,
When it falls suddenly upon them.

Bad things happen. Not because Satan blows up an airplane but because metal wears, cracks and the bolt holding the engine onto the wing breaks and the engine falls off. Things get old and break. And mankind is imperfect. Satan didn't "poses" anyone and make they hijack airplanes on 9/11, men made a choice to do it and they followed through with it.

A car tire blows because it's worn or neglected and a car crashes. Satan didn't crash the car, neglect did. Cause and effect. Often times, we are the cause of our own misery.

As for sin the best way I can explain sinfulness to those of you not familiar with Biblical term is this. Adam was created perfect. Had he not disobeyed God, he would never have gotten sick, he would never have gotten old, and he would have never died. His body would have reached physical maturity and his mind would have continued to work at it's peak from that time onward.

Definition: the Hebrew word for sin means "fall short of the mark" or fail to attain a set standard in this case, God's standard.

Had Adam and Eve had any children before they sinned, they would have had perfect offspring (with perfect health and unending life). But they didn't. The first children born were born AFTER Adam and Eve were no longer perfect. They were sinners. To describe how this imperfection entered mankind would be to use the example of baking a cake. Adam and Eve are like a new pan, any cakes made with that pan would have the shape of the pan. If you took a hammer to the pan and made a dent in it, any cake made from the now dented pan, from that moment on, will now have an imperfection.... Sin is the dent in the perfect pan. We've all inherited it from Adam and Eve. (Romans 5:12)

People today don't get sick and die because they "sinned against God". Little children don't die because their parents did something wicked. These things happen because Adam and Eve threw away perfection for mankind when they abandoned God's standards (with all their benefits, like perfect health and life without death) in exchange for the ability to chose for themselves "what is good and bad".

The Bible also answers why God has permitted this to happen in the first place.
It tells us what, if anything God purposes to do about it.
It even tells us how God will deal with this.

When you talk about Adam's fall, ultimately, doesn't it mean all sickness, etc come from Satan? And sometimes God allows it?


You know, the world was perfect before Adam n Eve sinned and consequently, the world came under Satan. Tyres wear out becos of him you know (and I don;t mean he uses his hands, it's just that he is lord of this world now, Christians are just in pilgrimage to a new world (-ok the tyre thing is just for dwarf's reading) - (I think in our new world we don't even have to change clothes (see nothinggets worn out) , someone told me- is it in the bible),

hmmm Dwarf, 9/11 was men's work without Satan's demons playing on their minds??? I agree they were not possessed. Possessed is a very strong word, you don't have to be possessed to be following thru Satan's plan and actually, people are seldom possessed. Do you know what pssessed is? Those people probably couldn't get up a plane , let alone blow up the tower if they were possessed!!

The extremists and terrorists, Hitler , they just became like that? Nicole Ann Smith , her dead son, drugs, depression...all by herself? There is a spirit realm , in my opinion, if you are a reborn Christian, you should ask the Holy Spirit for the gift of discernment and then get involved in your church's deliverance team ......then tell me a son gets up midnight, hears a voice, takes a shotgun/knife, goes upstairs and kills his whole family and it's their "own" doing. You know what is Satan's strategy? Playing with the mind.

Doesn;t the bible tell of a world so upside down that the world will welcome the anti-Christ with open arms? Are you saying business, economics , wars right now are men's doing, nothing to do with Satan. In intercessory prayer, we see spiritual forces controlling the economy and heads of governments even right now (and if you're American you should be thanking people like Cindy jacobs and Peter Wagner). In my opinion, the anti Christ probably will appear when there is no way out economically and he makes things right. Is there anything how a/C appears, btw ? Like I said, I haven't studied revelation , and the revelation thread isn't moving. I wonder where seacox is....



P/S I 'm only speaking to dwarf presuming he's a reborn, pls don't anyone else say my post is weird.

[quote name='CrazyDwarf' date='Oct 25 2007, 11:46 PM' post='5582']
As for sin the best way I can explain sinfulness to those of you not familiar with Biblical term is this. Adam was created perfect. Had he not disobeyed God, he would never have gotten sick, he would never have gotten old, and he would have never died. His body would have reached physical maturity and his mind would have continued to work at it's peak from that time onward.

Definition: the Hebrew word for sin means "fall short of the mark" or fail to attain a set standard in this case, God's standard.

Had Adam and Eve had any children before they sinned, they would have had perfect offspring (with perfect health and unending life). But they didn't. The first children born were born AFTER Adam and Eve were no longer perfect. They were sinners. To describe how this imperfection entered mankind would be to use the example of baking a cake. Adam and Eve are like a new pan, any cakes made with that pan would have the shape of the pan. If you took a hammer to the pan and made a dent in it, any cake made from the now dented pan, from that moment on, will now have an imperfection.... Sin is the dent in the perfect pan. We've all inherited it from Adam and Eve. (Romans 5:12)

People today don't get sick and die because they "sinned against God". Little children don't die because their parents did something wicked. These things happen because Adam and Eve threw away perfection for mankind when they abandoned God's standards (with all their benefits, like perfect health and life without death) in exchange for the ability to chose for themselves "what is good and bad".

That was in Genesis. Isn't that why Jesus came , so by dying on the cross, he became our righteousness and brought the standard up again? We remove Adam's sin that we inherit when we accept the gospel, we are made perfect in Christ. We can have covering /protection /blessings as long as we do not open the door to sin. And as Christians, we have to grace to "confess" the sin again and again (with genuine repentence of course), and God remembers it no more. So in my opinion, your last post on sin left out the redemption for mankind thru Jesus. Saying Christians get into trouble sickness just because the world is such because of Adam is like saying we don't know our God...After Genesis, God immediately went to work on a redemption plan for us so that we don't have to bear the consequences of Adam's sins. The way I read the Bible, it seems after Genesis, the whole bible till before revelation is about redeeming mankind, then judgement in revelation. Care to share your further opinion Dwarf or anyone who had read the bible? Would appreciate . thks.

I'm sorry.

On this point we agree.

A friend of mine had a son that was killed in a wreck. After the funeral, I heard someone trying to "comfort" another by saying it was part of "God's will". I kept my mouth shut, but I so wanted to tell them that "God" had nothing to do with it. The kid had just come from working a double shift, hadn't slept in over twenty-four hours, and set off right away to drive to upper-state New York for some concert. He fell asleep and hit another car head-on about twenty miles from home. Did "God" have anything to do with it? No. He made a very bad decision - one that his father urged him not to - and paid for it with his life. Even if I did believe that there is a "God", my take on the situation wouldn't change.

A lot of people use "God" as a handy scapegoat to blame for their own actions or lack of action. And I doubt that "God" would be very impressed with them. And there is this, too - you can make all of the right decisions and take all of the proper actions and sometimes still get a bad result. Random chance is the most powerful force in the universe, and we all fall victim to it. If an unexpected storm drops a foot of snow on the ground, sitting around lamenting the unfairness of "God" won't clear your driveway. Putting on your boots and grabbing the shovel will.

Accepting the results of your own decisions and actions - personal responsibility, I believe it's called - seems to have nearly vanished from our society. Another symptom of the illness that we have allowed to afflict this country. More often than not, we really are our worst enemy.