This is the main reason I don't like psychology; they love to assume. Because one person does one thing, they are inclined to fit into this category and therefore inclined to do another, possibly related thing. More specifically I am referring to the common assumption that masochistic tendencies are bad and means the person has a problem(s). This is not always true. And I believe it's their choice, as long as they are not directly hurting anybody else.

I know most of you will disagree with me, but that's ok .

Thank you for starting this topic here, solaris32, rather than continuing on in the thread where Vicki was seeking help regarding her daughter 'cutting' herself. While opinions are what our ThoughtVent is built upon, I personally feel we are encroaching on dangerous territory when a member's child's health is at stake.

The below is a quote from the other thread:

"Just because someone likes to cut themself, doesn't mean they have problems. Though based on further descriptions you've given, I'd say she does. If someone dares me to inflict pain on myself, I'll usually do it, and have. I just find it to be fun, as well as observing the reactions of the people watching me".

Unsure if I should assume from your post that you have 'masochistic tendencies' ... or assume from the quote above that the statements are made to 'observe the reactions' (shock value) of people reading the statements and then replying. Truly don't know.

I have never lied here, so they are true. I consider myself to have "minor masochistic tendencies". Which for me means nothing too serious, prefer external pain, and nothing on my head. I am a quite happy person, so I always get annoyed when people assume I must be depressed or have a problem, when I rarely inflict minor pain and damage on myself. I can't really put the reasoning of why I like to rarely do it into words. Though I did explain why I like to do it when someone dares me.

Anyone that self mutilates ones self, needs a Psychiatric Accessment,ASAP.
This Topic is just plain stupid,in my opinion.
No Psychiatrist or Psychologist on this Earth would agree, that this activity is normal.
Only nutters who need Psychiatric help themselves,could condone this stupidity as acceptable.

Tattoos are a form of self-mutilation, one would assume; yet there are supposedly acceptable reasons for them. Body piercings, too, seem acceptable. Where does social approval end and psychological "abnormality" begin, or is there even such a rigid distinction?
Z

Wherever there is disagreement, there is a worthy topic. Just because you may strongly disagree, doesn't make it a stupid topic DSTM. And a good observation Zarathustra.

I think there is a big difference between things like tattoos and piercings vs. cutting oneself. Tattoos and piercings main purpose isn't to inflict pain, it's to gain what some consider to be an attractive accessory. People don't get tattoos because they like the hurt, it's because they like the artistic result. Also, my female family members have told me that piercings don't always hurt.

What confuses me is how someone can gain pleasure out of giving themselves pain. It goes against all natural insticts, which means it must be a learned activity, and no one randomly decides one day to go and cut themselves, (at least no one I know of). I believe that anyone who experiments with such should attempt to gain help, as it is not in the least natural nor healthy.

I'm honestly curious and struggling to understand a point of view that seems to go against, as Sphinx said, 'all natural instincts'.

I'm guilty of assuming that only children who are angry at themselves (or perhaps others) and are unable to verbalize this intense anger, then turn to self-mutilation, rather than physically attacking others.

But when I read the words, "I am a quite happy person, so I always get annoyed when people assume I must be depressed or have a problem, when I rarely inflict minor pain and damage on myself", I do wonder about something.

For instance, if one wakes up to a glorious sunny day filled with excitement on what the day may hold and is at peace within oneself, surely the last thing one would want to do is self-mutilate? I honestly can't quite get my mind around happiness = self-mutilation.

Why can't it just be an amusing thing to partake of once in awhile? You people are against it because you don't consider it normal, and it indeed not many people do it any form. However, once upon a time, some things that are commonly accepted today were once considered abnormal. For example, the previously mention tattoos and excessive piercings, as well as homosexuality. Today this stuff is normal.

Can you tell me what exactly makes masochism bad? Am I hurting anyone other than myself? Under what train of thinking does it become bad? The only reason I can see is because of someone's mere opinion. But opinion is not fact, and there are no facts placing masochism as bad.

I am not sure how old you are solaris or if you live with your parent's or not,but if you do live at home and your parent's come in to see you mutilating yourself, do you think they would find it amusing?
do you think they would say c'mon son pass the knife let's make a night of it?
to be honest if you want to go round hurting yourself that's your buisness ,if you want to cut off your arm while standing one legged in a vat of acid and posting it on youtube then that is also your buisness.Heck i'd probably watch it myself.



Are you sure about that? i would have a little check on that if i was you.

I think you guys are overdoing it a bit. Just because someone is slightly masochistic, doesn't mean they make huge gouges with a knife, or even "cut" for that matter. And like I said, I have heard no "facts" for why it is bad.

look i won't go into the fact's part as am sure you know i could pull out fifty link's saying it is and you could pull out fifty more to refute it.
when i was younger i used to do thing's for a laugh i,e jumping of loading bay's on my bmx climbing on high factorie's that where condemned and basically causing a bit of havoc,but at no point did i delibrately try to damage myself at the end of the day i did not want to get hurt no matter what stunt's i pulled.

I can honestly say that no-one is overeacting ,just given you the benefit of our life experience(That is if you are as young as i think you are)

Yes, sadly I too am sure there must be many links out there in the internet world saying 'it's perfectly normal' - gentle sigh.

But as others have said, inflicting pain on oneself is surely not something everyone does - or, for that matter, actually considered 'norm' for most?

I'm not judging those who practice 'self-injury' (unsure if that's even the right term but it seems apt) as I've never had the urge, but do wonder about something.

Always had thought a person who does it is usually secretive about it and suffers in silence rather than be labeled 'psychotic', etc - somehow knowing it is not the 'normal' behaviour of a happy person. How unusual to find someone who not only does it but sees nothing 'abnormal' about it.

If an adult, yes, you have a right to do what you choose with your life and body ... 'as long as it hurts no others'. I too don't know your age nor your personal circumstances but do agree that your parents and others who love you may be horribly concerned.

After reading through this thread, I've got an observation:

Someone who says they have "minor masochistic tendencies" does not agree with



Well, duh!

I've known plenty of alcoholics who don't think having a drink is a problem, either.

I'm sure that if I had any problem (which I don't, 'cause I'm perfect ) I would downlplay and somewhat defend it, too. I suspect we all would.



I'd say we need to define "masochism" to make sure we are all talking about the same thing.

While piercing one's ear or getting a tattoo may be somewhat painful, that shouldn't imply that the only reason one does it is for the pain, for example, so I wouldn't consider them in the same category at all with someone who has the medically described - Wikipedia - Sadism and Macochism - problems.

It is a given that some people inflict pain (or "self injury" as Mara has termed it) upon themselves. And it seems the motivation and purpose of the individual's action determines whether it is "normal" or not.
What would happen if "everyone" not only had tattoos but scars as well? Do all the individuals who have piercings choose to do so only for the SAME reason (say, adornment), or is it possible that some ALSO enjoy the actual pain (or potential for future pain)? Again, for some people sexual arousal and enjoyment is enhanced by varying degrees of pain; this may not be "normal" but under what specific cases would cause us to be concerned about pyschological "heath" (for lack of a better term)?
I think we should avoid sweeping generalities and look to specific cases and situations to see if there is some commonality---or difference---that would help us draw conclusions.
Z

Solaris, I'm wondering when and how often you partake in acts of self-mutilation. Is it when you're bored, a few times a month, a few times a week, a few times a day? And what do you do, exactly? Do you pinch yourself, or do you use knives? When, exactly, did you first learn this activity? (If you feel this delves into your life too personally, please, feel free not to answer. I'm just curious as to what circumstances you commit "minor masochistic tendencies.")

Also, just because it might be possible that a few get earrings because of the pain, it is incorrect to assume the main purpose of earrings is for pain. The fact is, the majority of people get earrings for the adornment, and The people who get earrings for the pain should seek help.

First, I prefer external pain to internal. External would be like cuts and scrapes. Internal would be like indigestion or headaches (too bad I get migraines). I have always had a high pain threshold, however, it wasn't until relatively recently that I learned I semi-liked external pain. Should I fall and scrape my leg, the pain doesn't bother me, I in fact embrace it. I also like adding rubbing alcohol, to not only clean it but enhance the pain.

I never fall and hurt myself on purpose though. What I do do to myself is stab myself in the leg with thumbtacks or other sharp thing. It is more for amusement than the pain because it is just interesting to see, and it doesn't really hurt either. It is also amusing the responses I get from anyone I show, which is rarely. I also rarely do this; just something I have done.

I have cut myself, though I only do that on a dare. It's just not as amusing for me when I do that unless I'm getting a response. For example, my suite mate dared me to cut my arm and pour tobasco sauce into it. He thought the sauce would burn, but I claimed it wouldn't, so I told him I'd cut myself and pour it into the wound and see. I used scissors (a razor wasn't handy) and poured some and mixed it around. Just a small incision, about half an inch. I still have the scar too, but that doesn't bother me; it isn't obvious for one. And no the tobasco didn't burn.

My parents don't know any of this and they don't need to know. I'm a happy individual who just likes to occasionally engage in a bit of fun (for me). I know I'm not normal and I in no way want to be. In my opinion, this is just a personality quirk that affects little, helps define who I am, and doesn't need to be changed.

Now just because someone is masochistic, doesn't necessarily mean they have a problem. I like to be open-minded about most things and assume the best. Though granted, most people usually do have a problem, I just hate assuming simply because someone breaks from the norm.

Edit: I'm 19 as stated in my personal statement in my profile.

It seems to me from your response that you aren't truly masochistic. A masochistic person hurts themselves only for the pain. It appears that you don't necessarily do it for the pain (you said that a lot of the time it doesn't even hurt) but you do it because of social pressures and for shock factor. However, I believe that this might eventually lead into Masochistic tendencies where you might hurt yourself more and more not for the social aspects but just because of the pain. Once you hit this point, I think you'll be masochistic, and then I think you might want to look for another hobby. One less dangerous.

That's why I said "minor masochistic tendencies". Anyway, my point is that a person can be radically abnormal (though just slightly for me in this case), yet still lead a healthy and happy life.

Ok... here are some things to keep in mind.... some "facts" that you asked for.... self injury can lead to more complications. Where there's blood, there's risk of infection. Even a common paper cut can get infected. Second... scars. Depending on location and depth, scars can lead to limited physical ability when you are older. Scar tissue doesn't stretch like undamaged tissue. Third... pain is the body's way of saying something isn't right. My mom had diabetes, and had to prick her finger several times a day to monitor her blood sugar. As time progressed, it became harder for her to get that droplet of blood and her fingertips lost feeling altogether. The loss of feeling, touch, can lead to medical issues (ex: not noticing an injury and it becomes infected) but.... also deprivation of simple pleasures. Humans experience things through their senses. If one or more of the senses doesn't work, then part of the experience is gone. Mom couldn't feel the tap tap tap of the keyboard as she typed... she couldn't feel water trickling over her fingers, nor could she feel the temp of the water.... she couldn't feel my daughter's hair as she gently brushed it... she couldn't feel the yarn as she knitted... she couldn't feel the sand slipping through her fingers the year we went to the beach.

Beyond all that I can understand the fascination with pain. I can understand the wonder at how the body reacts to stimuli. I can understand the "wow" factor. But... too much "wow" can lead to unexpected, unwanted side effects.

I dont think what Solaris32 does can be considerd normal but i dont have any problem with what he is doing either. I wouldn't ever do anything like this myself and i wouldn't suggest anyone try it, but he is obviously aware and open about what he is doing not the typical stereotype of someone sitting alone in a dark room with a knife. There are people out ther who hurt themselves for a living i.e. Jackass, dirty sanchez and the many shows that have copied them. People who do these show are considered Daredevils so although solaris32 isn't doing it for a living he is still doing exactly the same thing, suffering pain for the plesure of others


Wiki

Like i said im not into this kind of thing but there are plenty of people who do it and plenty who watch it.

Hi Syler and Welcome to Thoughtvent.
Psychiatrists don't say it is normal behavior,and give their reasons why.
Personally,I think they are exhibitionists,seeking attention.
Not mainstream behavior.

Hello DSTM



Thats exactly what they are and why they are doing it, i agree. Though whilst their are people who want to do this and people who
want to see them do it then it will continue. Im not saying this is normal but as long as they are not hurting anyone else then it's up to
them. Who's to say what's normal in todays society though, i think society is more diverse than it has ever been and will only become
more so. I can sit infront of my computer for 10hrs + a day surfing the net and doing things on my computer (Not work related)
and some people would say thats not normal but that's just an opinion, So i just say each to their own thing.

I agee,as long as it doesn't affect me,or anybody else. They can stand in front of a Train for all I care.One less ratbag to worry about.
I still maintain,this is weird behaviour.Who is their right mind would needlessly inflict pain on themselves?
One in six People in the World have a Mental Health problem of some sort.Am I surprised at this behaviour,NO.
To me,I think they are stepping over the line.Society doesn't really accept this,it tolerates it.There is a difference.

Adults do have the right to make decisions about their own bodies - but as harsh as they may sound, I would have advised our girls to 'run like the wind' if they considered a relationship with someone that deliberately causes injury to his or her self. Simply, because while they do have the right to do so, it's often best for ourselves and our children to not hook up with someone who has a lot' more baggage' than we do - gentle sigh and smile.

More baggage is right,Mara.Self mutilation is not uncommon,and points to a Personality disorder.
The scarey thing is, these individuals think it normal.
Known recorded cases, of starting off self mutilating,then turning to Animal torture, and then eventually turning into a murderous Psychopaths.Not all by any means.
Self mutilation, I find is an interesting subject,as I do any subject involving Mental Health.

QUOTE.
Suyemoto and MacDonald (1995) reported that the incidence of self-mutilation occurred in adolescents and young adults between the ages of 15 and 35 at an estimated 1,800 individuals out of 100,000. The incidence among inpatient adolescents was an estimated 40%. Self-mutilation has been most commonly seen as a diagnostic indicator for Borderline Personality Disorder, a characteristic of Stereotypic Movement Disorder (associated with autism and mental retardation) and attributed to Factitious Disorders. However, practitioners have more recently observed self-harming behavior among those individuals diagnosed with bipolar disorder, obsessive-compulsive disorder, eating disorders, multiple personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, schizophrenia, and most recently, with adolescents and young adults. The increased observance of these behaviors has left many mental health professionals calling for self-mutilation to have its own diagnosis in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (Zila & Kiselica, 2001). The phenomenon is often difficult to define and easily misunderstood. UNQUOTE.

SOURCE. http://www.ericdigests.org/2003-2/mutilation.html

Thanks Syler for your thoughts,also.

EDIT.Speeling.

This is a very interesting discussion. All of you have fair points at one stage or other. However, I am with the majority that is to say that such behaviour is abnormal and should not be encouraged. But again, we are the ones to define what is normal and what is not. Jumping from a building might be considered "normal" by "daredevils" but "normal" people would call it insane and watch it interestedly because they can't do it themselves. In a way, they enjoy the way that the person is inflicting damage to himself / herself not caring if the performer feels a thing or not.

Such behaviour is not recommended or considered normal, in my opinion. Normality in the real world is what the majority deems appropriate and in this case, we know how most people would take it. It all varies from different point of views. For example, to the "normal" viewer, the act would look insane but to a sensitive viewer, it will just be gross. Therefore, doing such stunts is not good regardless of doing it for pleasure or attention.

I have seen people block their veins that lead to the brain to "get a high" but do I think it is normal? No. Deaths have been reported when doing such stunts and irreparable damage to the brain is inflicted at the very least. Minor Masochism, as you term it, might lead to "want" of more pain and therefore push the mark higher. At one point or the other, it will become too much and will result in long-term damages.

In the end, such "masochistic" people do it for mental pleasure and not for physical pleasure. For this, there are safer ways like Meditation, Yoga and Astral Journeys. Experimentation with the soul to seek mental pleasure is commendable as there is little or no risk of injury but doing so with the physical body might lead to disabilities which are unwanted and may ruin your life for that temporary instant of pleasure.

No offense meant to anyone as everyone has their own point of view.

-- Goku

Isn't there the chance this could cause derailment? Even if not, it may cause the driver to make an emergency stop which could still cause injury to passengers.







I have cut myself in the past, but it certainly was not for fun. It hurt alot and was not in the slightest bit pleasurable.