Wondering what the concensus is amongst the American People. Is Bush right in staying on,or do you think he should pull out?
Do you think this Conflict is winnable,or starting to look like another Vietnam? 2007 was the worst year yet for War Dead,and the 2008 Iracq War Budget is around 460 Billion Dollars, plus how many times he may ask to increase this amount.How long can these 460 Billion Dollar Bugets go on for, before it starts to seriously affect the Economy?Interested in your thoughts.

One Story. http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/11/06/africa/iraq.php

This post has been edited by blackspyder: Nov 12 2007, 12:00 AM

A somewhat loaded question.

Bush has made some incorrect decisions regarding Iraq, as would have many of his detractors in the US Congress, so whether Bush is "right" or not in what he's done or doing will never be a simple "yes or no" answer, in my opinion.

Separating whether we should be there or not from the fact that we are there makes the answer to whether we should pull out a liitle more clear to me. Pulling out in the manner put forth by many of the US Democrats in Congress would be even more catastrophic than the situation is now.

Answering in order:

This country never should have invaded Iraq in the first place. If Hussein chose to ignore the United Nothings, if he wanted to gas his own people, if he wanted to start a war with Iran - whatever he wanted to do - was really none of our business. But since we did invade the country, after S.H. was captured, then it was time to leave. If it was "Mission accomplished", then what the hell are we still doing there?

I suppose the next question would depend on how one defines "winnable". Militarily, there can be no "winning", except, perhaps, by scorched-earth strategies and tactics. And there are any number of parallels between the debacle in Iraq and our defeat in Viet Nam. In Viet Nam we were fighting an enemy that knew exactly where we were, while we couldn't find them. In Viet Nam, the battlefield was the jungle; in Iraq it's an urban jungle. In Viet Nam, especially near the end of the war, the politician's began interfering with the military. In Iraq, the politicians have had the military hog-tied from the start. How many people are aware that, before the Pentagon is allowed to order any military operations, they first have to be approved by a panel of friggin' lawyers?!!!

Viet Nam saw our troops deployed to fire bases, which were basically defensive positions from which platoons of men could be sent into the field to be chewed up by the guerrillas. And the same type of defensive posture has been adopted in Iraq. The guerrillas in Iraq are unseen and unseeable. And if the troops do manage to corner some, they're not allowed to fire!!

One thing that would help immensely, and it isn't going to happen, would be for the President to tell the politicians to go back to screwing their constituents, the lawyers to go back to chasing ambulances, 'cause they're all done filling 'em, and let the military get on with doing it's job, free of interference.

We can stay in Irag for another, 10, 20, 50 years, and the situation won't change. The only change will be that the American sheeple will become used to money and lives being dumped into a hole in the sand, and will complacently return to cropping their politically-fertilized fields.

Please note this is a copy of what I posted on BC, this is specificly for those who believe there were no WMD's in Iraq, and that we are there for oil.

Facts:
1. Saddam was tried and was found guilty henceforth killed for his crimes involving the murder of thousands of kurds
2..The primary weapon for his attacks against the kurds included the use of mustard gas namely by method of artillaryshells full of it
3. a WMD is classified as "a weapon that kills or injures civilian as well as military personnel (nuclear and chemical and biological weapons)"
4. mustard gas: "an irritant oily liquid C4H8Cl2S used especially as a chemical weapon that causes blistering, attacks the eyes and lungs, and is a systemic poison called also dichlorethyl sulfide, sulfur mustard. An oily, volatile liquid, (ClCH2CH2)2S, that is corrosive to the skin and mucous membranes and causes severe, sometimes fatal respiratory damage. It was introduced in World War I as a chemical warfare agent." Mustard gas is also classified as a Cytotoxic agent.
5. Mustard gas because of its nature (hitting both non-combatants and military personelle, as well as being a chemical agent) is classified as a WMD
6. Proof of Mustard gas (a WMD) existing in Iraq
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/02/12/...rq.inspections/
http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04....irq.chemicals/
http://newsbusters.org/node/14313/print (A whole list of links pertaining to this topic)
All the above prove how biased American media is, it also proves how much the Democratic party wants Iraq to turn into vietnam.

Either way we must take full responsibility for removing the last regieme and as thus start the new gov't off on a good foot without leaving them out to dry.

My biggest question is why don't we here more about the good things going on in Iraq, such as the fact that regular citizens are aiding local and U.S. forces to capture known terrorists and insurgents? But I know the answer: If the news reported the good things about the world everyday (warm, sunny, well fed, environment doing fine) noone would want/ need to watch the news. However if the News reports only body counts and terrorist upsurges its always something new, therefore the T.V. station gets more viewers bringing in more revenue.

In truth our media is the terrorists propaganda, they are using the media everyday to wear our spirits down. Another car bombing, another Civilian killed wears us down, bringing more people to the conclusion we aren't doing anything in Iraq except send our soldiers to die needlessly.

To have our politicians second guess our troops and say we are bad, we are losing horribly; is to lower morale and to aid the enemy which is treasonous in my book. Please remember my American friends that in order to take military action in Iraq most of congress voted to go based on the reports we have at this time, for these politicians to come out and say "I never supported the war" is to blatantly lie in order to gain votes.

Also understand that undoing many years of tyranny into a favorable supportable democracy that supports it's people takes several generations to take hold, not only that but we are a primarily christian country that is trying to form a democratic gov't for an Islamic country, there are lots of issues that need to be reflected in the gov't including womens rights that will possibly conflict with Fundamental Islamic beliefs. In short the world expected us to go in, find WMD's charge saddam, then set up a
new democratic gov't in only a couple years time, thats a tall order.

/End Rant

This post has been edited by Ussr1943: Nov 10 2007, 11:18 PM

Very well said ! Ussr1943. Whether we should have "gone there" is mostly academic at this point. My thoughts on the matter are, Finnish The Job, as for the questions of WMD's , they were there in the form of chemical warheads as blister agents (Mustard gas) and as nerve agents (VX/Sarin). Small, easily portable, and DEADLY.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3722255.stm
http://www.defensetech.org/archives/000915.html
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articl...17/170427.shtml
Tomorrow night on the History Channel is a re-broadcast program called Band of Bloggers from what little I saw of it the first time it's about U.S. Soldiers Blogging in Iraq and was pretty good.

This region with it's different factions have been at war with each other for centuries, do you really think that we have any chance of establishing a democracy in a short few years? These people are just short of being involved in a full out civil war.
The only thing that Bush has accomplished is to kill SH along with more of or soldiers than I care to think of at a cost of billions of dollars, I don't see anything that is worth that price tag.

The Iraq Stalemate is as unwinnable as Veit NAM. The leaders of the free world are not in the U.S. But the bullies and wannabe dictators are. Our Present administration has made no secret of the fact that if you are not with us you are against us. Therefor it is do as I say, not as I do, Mentality. Leading by edict is somthing that most pesidents except for two of them has wanted to do since DDE.

This post has been edited by Conundrum: Dec 21 2007, 11:09 AM

It would seem that the world is catching on. Recent elections in Poland, Spain and now Australia have brought down Governments that were supportive of Bush and his war. The new Australian Prime Minister, elected today, stated in his victory speech that he will immideately sign the Keoto Treaty and bring the combat soldiers that are still there home from Iraq. So another one bites the dust and we can only hope that America will soon follow but no later than Jan 21 2009.

Well Mr. Australian,

I agree with some of the other writers it doesn't matter that I have been against this war from the start! We are there now! Lets look at the fall out of our actions (which includes Australia, a member of the coalition of the willing)

Because of all the depleted uranium we dumped during the campaign of 'Shock & Awe', Iraq will not be inhabitable, the water,earth, and air are toxic.

It's costing us a way of life that the world has always admired "The American Dream". Our dollar almost has the same value as a mexican peso.

Our country has become so divided because our politicians give us false choices and pit us against each other. We have a president who says that the best way the average american can help with the war effort is to go to the mall.

I think that or I hope that at the least the powers that be will get our brave children soldiers out of harms way before they decide to bomb Iran. Since this whole exercise is about controlling resources in that part of the world I believe we are only at the beginning, soon sides will be openly taken and Mr. George W. will see who is against him and who's with him. I read the other post before writing this note to you. I am a American and Mr. Bush is my president Yeah I am sad about it but the truth is we are one country one nation and if it happens to Mr. Bush America then that means me too!
Jo4Peace

Well Mr American,
The general consensus of the Australian people is that we shouldn't even be in Iracq,once Saddam was Captured.We are staunch Allies to America,and if we were being invaded,or you for that matter,we wouldn't think twice of helping in any way we could.However this is not the case, with this War,if you wish to call it that.We Voted out MR Howard,because he had lost touch with the will of The people, who voted him in.Wasn't only the Iracq issue,but other issues as well,which led to his demise.You should vote Bush out if you dont agree with his decisions.You should march in your thousands and protest if you dont agree with the government you elected.To lose roughly 4000 young Soldiers,as you have is terrible.That's someones Son or Father,or whatever.We feel here, it cant be won, when now it's amongst Ethnic Factions,and we should get the hell out of there.
Iran,or Turkey, has Troops massed on the Iracq border,and I fear America will be dragged into an escalating War,larger than seen in recent times.
What annoys me also is,when I read how your and our Returned Service Troops,are treated so discustingly when they return home.They are absolutely forgotten,when they should be rewarded for Risking their lives for each one of us.They are all heroes in my opinion.
For George Bush to say 'If you are not with us,then you are against us',is absolute crap.These are the Rantings of a Warmonger.IMO.

Quote.
""There is a real concern that, regardless of who wins the [U.S.] elections [in November], the United States is not up to fixing Iraq," Baran noted, adding there is also "fear that the U.S. is going to get involved militarily in Syria and Iran" in ways that could further destabilize the region".
End Quote.
Source. http://www.antiwar.com/lobe/?articleid=3200

This post has been edited by DSTM: Nov 25 2007, 01:29 AM

Well Mr Austrian I would be Ms America,

I think the American people have already been dragged into a war that extends from Saudi Arabia thru to Pakistan and probably includes India. Our President and his people namely Condi Rice have said that this is an opportunity to reshape the middle east

And if you listen to the republican candidates except for Ron Paul they all sound like a bunch of Crusaders on a mission to 'Democratize the World', and only intend to cut their teeth on the middle east.

And if you listen to the democrats you got Hillary, Obama, Biden, Dodd talking in Clinton speak it sounds like they're saying they're going to end the war but if you listen closely they are talking about relocating combat troops but keeping a presence in Iraq (on the surface it sounds reasonable)but its not ending the war.

I read an article regarding the Australian elections. I was impressed by Mr. Rudd and the people he is bringing to power with him some community activist and a singer. But your new minister also said that he would be removing combat troops but support troops will remain. So is Australia really leaving Iraq?

Mr Rudd,our new Prime Minister elected only hours ago,seems like he has the right intentions.I quite like his Intentions to listen to the people and guide us into a new direction.Only time will tell,and should be given the chance to make Australia a great place to live and work in.
One of his objectives is to meet President Bush,for discussions.That is a positive move in my opinion.
I hope you get a leader which all the Western World has respect for.Mr Bush has not been a great leader,in my opinion.
We have to have a positive outlook for the future,and I can only hope Mr Rudd can deliver the goods.
From what I have read on other Boards as well,is that Ron Paul seems to be a good contender and the average American like him. Lets hope whoever gets elected in your Elections,they make the tough and right decisions to get America back on the rails,before all hope is lost. America was once the most respected Country in the Western World,and will be once again if you can get some Positive Leadership.
This Video of Mr Rudd seems he is detemined to do what's best for this country.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story...386-601,00.html

As much as I deplore this unnecessary war in Iraq we are there. We have disrupted the way of life of these people and if we pull out without reestablishing stability then this situation could spin out of control and become a civil war. Like it or not we are stuck there for a while, even the democrats are realizing this even if they don't say this loudly. Thank you President Bush, your legacy will live on long after you are finally out of office.

In my view, if the war is untenable or unwinnable, then we must swallow our pride and leave. I know that may be oversimplyfying it, but that is that's what left after all the layers are peeled off. Those who believe that the war can be salvaged to some face saving end are in denial and delusional for those who think it can be won.

Reagan left Lebanon after the attack on the marine barracks in the early 80s. He was smart enough to know that American presence centrally located in the hotbed of religious fanaticism was a lose-lose proposition.

I'm usually left on most debates and the neo-conservatism movement is any many ways fanatical in preserving their ideals. What happened to all the Reaganites? They were much more pleasant in issue discussions.

bush is absoloutely right to stay. pulling out now would only unleash the rest of the middle eastern countries on iraqs weak government. make no mistake, other middle eastern nations would gladly take over iraq if we werent there to stop them and trust me they would not discriminate in their killing.
over the last several weeks the situation has actually improved in iraq. general patreus says the surge is working and indeed the new york times has said the same. with double digit decreases in ied explosions, attacks on troops, and suicide bombings why quit now. i do have some concern about the wars budget though and i dont know how long we can sustain it. i think we need to win and soon.