To say that Satan is responsible for every problem we face would be to dismiss God's Word on the matter.
Ecclesiastes 9:11-12 (New King James Version)
I returned and saw under the sun that—

The race is not to the swift,
Nor the battle to the strong,
Nor bread to the wise,
Nor riches to men of understanding,
Nor favor to men of skill;
But time and chance happen to them all.
12 For man also does not know his time:
Like fish taken in a cruel net,
Like birds caught in a snare,
So the sons of men are snared in an evil time,
When it falls suddenly upon them.

Bad things happen. Not because Satan blows up an airplane but because metal wears, cracks and the bolt holding the engine onto the wing breaks and the engine falls off. Things get old and break. And mankind is imperfect. Satan didn't "poses" anyone and make they hijack airplanes on 9/11, men made a choice to do it and they followed through with it.

A car tire blows because it's worn or neglected and a car crashes. Satan didn't crash the car, neglect did. Cause and effect. Often times, we are the cause of our own misery.

As for sin the best way I can explain sinfulness to those of you not familiar with Biblical term is this. Adam was created perfect. Had he not disobeyed God, he would never have gotten sick, he would never have gotten old, and he would have never died. His body would have reached physical maturity and his mind would have continued to work at it's peak from that time onward.

Definition: the Hebrew word for sin means "fall short of the mark" or fail to attain a set standard in this case, God's standard.

Had Adam and Eve had any children before they sinned, they would have had perfect offspring (with perfect health and unending life). But they didn't. The first children born were born AFTER Adam and Eve were no longer perfect. They were sinners. To describe how this imperfection entered mankind would be to use the example of baking a cake. Adam and Eve are like a new pan, any cakes made with that pan would have the shape of the pan. If you took a hammer to the pan and made a dent in it, any cake made from the now dented pan, from that moment on, will now have an imperfection.... Sin is the dent in the perfect pan. We've all inherited it from Adam and Eve. (Romans 5:12)

People today don't get sick and die because they "sinned against God". Little children don't die because their parents did something wicked. These things happen because Adam and Eve threw away perfection for mankind when they abandoned God's standards (with all their benefits, like perfect health and life without death) in exchange for the ability to chose for themselves "what is good and bad".

The Bible also answers why God has permitted this to happen in the first place.
It tells us what, if anything God purposes to do about it.
It even tells us how God will deal with this.

When you talk about Adam's fall, ultimately, doesn't it mean all sickness, etc come from Satan? And sometimes God allows it?


You know, the world was perfect before Adam n Eve sinned and consequently, the world came under Satan. Tyres wear out becos of him you know (and I don;t mean he uses his hands, it's just that he is lord of this world now, Christians are just in pilgrimage to a new world (-ok the tyre thing is just for dwarf's reading) - (I think in our new world we don't even have to change clothes (see nothinggets worn out) , someone told me- is it in the bible),

hmmm Dwarf, 9/11 was men's work without Satan's demons playing on their minds??? I agree they were not possessed. Possessed is a very strong word, you don't have to be possessed to be following thru Satan's plan and actually, people are seldom possessed. Do you know what pssessed is? Those people probably couldn't get up a plane , let alone blow up the tower if they were possessed!!

The extremists and terrorists, Hitler , they just became like that? Nicole Ann Smith , her dead son, drugs, depression...all by herself? There is a spirit realm , in my opinion, if you are a reborn Christian, you should ask the Holy Spirit for the gift of discernment and then get involved in your church's deliverance team ......then tell me a son gets up midnight, hears a voice, takes a shotgun/knife, goes upstairs and kills his whole family and it's their "own" doing. You know what is Satan's strategy? Playing with the mind.

Doesn;t the bible tell of a world so upside down that the world will welcome the anti-Christ with open arms? Are you saying business, economics , wars right now are men's doing, nothing to do with Satan. In intercessory prayer, we see spiritual forces controlling the economy and heads of governments even right now (and if you're American you should be thanking people like Cindy jacobs and Peter Wagner). In my opinion, the anti Christ probably will appear when there is no way out economically and he makes things right. Is there anything how a/C appears, btw ? Like I said, I haven't studied revelation , and the revelation thread isn't moving. I wonder where seacox is....



P/S I 'm only speaking to dwarf presuming he's a reborn, pls don't anyone else say my post is weird.

[quote name='CrazyDwarf' date='Oct 25 2007, 11:46 PM' post='5582']
As for sin the best way I can explain sinfulness to those of you not familiar with Biblical term is this. Adam was created perfect. Had he not disobeyed God, he would never have gotten sick, he would never have gotten old, and he would have never died. His body would have reached physical maturity and his mind would have continued to work at it's peak from that time onward.

Definition: the Hebrew word for sin means "fall short of the mark" or fail to attain a set standard in this case, God's standard.

Had Adam and Eve had any children before they sinned, they would have had perfect offspring (with perfect health and unending life). But they didn't. The first children born were born AFTER Adam and Eve were no longer perfect. They were sinners. To describe how this imperfection entered mankind would be to use the example of baking a cake. Adam and Eve are like a new pan, any cakes made with that pan would have the shape of the pan. If you took a hammer to the pan and made a dent in it, any cake made from the now dented pan, from that moment on, will now have an imperfection.... Sin is the dent in the perfect pan. We've all inherited it from Adam and Eve. (Romans 5:12)

People today don't get sick and die because they "sinned against God". Little children don't die because their parents did something wicked. These things happen because Adam and Eve threw away perfection for mankind when they abandoned God's standards (with all their benefits, like perfect health and life without death) in exchange for the ability to chose for themselves "what is good and bad".

That was in Genesis. Isn't that why Jesus came , so by dying on the cross, he became our righteousness and brought the standard up again? We remove Adam's sin that we inherit when we accept the gospel, we are made perfect in Christ. We can have covering /protection /blessings as long as we do not open the door to sin. And as Christians, we have to grace to "confess" the sin again and again (with genuine repentence of course), and God remembers it no more. So in my opinion, your last post on sin left out the redemption for mankind thru Jesus. Saying Christians get into trouble sickness just because the world is such because of Adam is like saying we don't know our God...After Genesis, God immediately went to work on a redemption plan for us so that we don't have to bear the consequences of Adam's sins. The way I read the Bible, it seems after Genesis, the whole bible till before revelation is about redeeming mankind, then judgement in revelation. Care to share your further opinion Dwarf or anyone who had read the bible? Would appreciate . thks.

I'm sorry.

On this point we agree.

A friend of mine had a son that was killed in a wreck. After the funeral, I heard someone trying to "comfort" another by saying it was part of "God's will". I kept my mouth shut, but I so wanted to tell them that "God" had nothing to do with it. The kid had just come from working a double shift, hadn't slept in over twenty-four hours, and set off right away to drive to upper-state New York for some concert. He fell asleep and hit another car head-on about twenty miles from home. Did "God" have anything to do with it? No. He made a very bad decision - one that his father urged him not to - and paid for it with his life. Even if I did believe that there is a "God", my take on the situation wouldn't change.

A lot of people use "God" as a handy scapegoat to blame for their own actions or lack of action. And I doubt that "God" would be very impressed with them. And there is this, too - you can make all of the right decisions and take all of the proper actions and sometimes still get a bad result. Random chance is the most powerful force in the universe, and we all fall victim to it. If an unexpected storm drops a foot of snow on the ground, sitting around lamenting the unfairness of "God" won't clear your driveway. Putting on your boots and grabbing the shovel will.

Accepting the results of your own decisions and actions - personal responsibility, I believe it's called - seems to have nearly vanished from our society. Another symptom of the illness that we have allowed to afflict this country. More often than not, we really are our worst enemy.

Surely "sinfulness" is confined to religion and applied to religious acts. I do not see any reason why the concept should be applied to the natural world.

Nor, for that matter, is the ability to accept responsibility for one's actions unless one does so following religious precepts something factual. It is quite possible and actual, as any follower of Sartre would quickly point out, to make responsibility for one's actions central to their life without a constant appeal to "God's Law." What has "vanished from society" is the unquestioned obedience to a set of more and more doubted rules of conduct propounded by a few religious sects. This can be seen as an "illness" or as a liberation.
Z

Re: " should be thanking people like Cindy jacobs and Peter Wagner"

For our members who may not know who these people are, I hope I have the below correct ...

Cindy Jacobs ... the lady who is president of an organization called ‘Generals of Intercession’, who speaks in tongues and she and her husband lay hands on the sick?

Peter Wagner ... the man who defines three levels of spiritual warfare: "Ground-level" involves casting demons out of individuals; "occult-level warfare" which involves more organized "powers of darkness" and confronts territorial spirits assigned by Satan to coordinate activities over a geographical area?

The refusal to accept responsibility for ones own actions is part of the illness afflicting our society. "It's someone else's fault" has become the battle-cry of the masses. And religion, or lack thereof, has nothing to do with it. This is why we have ridiculous judges awarding ridiculous amounts to clumsy oafs that spill coffee on themselves, so then turn around a sue the business they bought the coffee from!! Even more ridiculous is awarding people obscene amounts of money because someone died as a result of their own actions!! If I go out in the pouring rain without an umbrella, then whose fault is it if I get wet? Mine. There are far too many people, though, that would place the fault on anyone or anything they could think of, besides themselves. I am so sick of the "not my fault" generation.

If someone electrocutes himself while trying to use an electric drill in a flooded basement, it isn't through any wrongdoing on the part of the drill manufacturer. It's simply one of Nature's ways of removing defective material from the gene pool.

Sometimes I entertain myself wit court programs on rainy afternoons. I saw one I couldn't believe one day. A guy was suing this broad (very broad) because she wouldn't pay after rear-ending him, destroying his car, and nearly killing his kid, who was strapped in a car-seat in the back seat. Reasonable. The unbelievable part was her trying to counter sue him for medical expenses!! It gets even more bizarre. The reason she smashed into the rear of his car was that she was looking for a bottle of water that she'd dropped!! This broad really believed that the accident wasn't her fault!! The guy is stopped at a red light, she smashes into him because she wasn't even looking in front of her, and it's not her fault?!?

Another example of what we've allowed our society to degenerate into. "Not my fault."

I'm gonna let you all in on a little secret - the only one responsible for your actions is you.

This post has been edited by MattV: Oct 26 2007, 02:35 PM

Yes Mara, you are right, I was refering to them

Hi michelle

Death is a result of sin.

Ezekiel 18:4 (New American Standard Bible)
"The soul who sins will die"



This would imply that the Apostles and early Christians failed to follow Jesus example, hence they were willful sinners and unworthy of the sacrifice Jesus made for them and that's why they died. If it were possible for us to somehow "remove Adam's sin" today and be "made perfect" today, there would be people who would not die because they are sinless, or perfect. Had Adam, not sinned he would not have died. His death was a result of his sin.

Romans 5:12 shows that mankind were still sinners but finally a way out had been made a possible.

So how can mankind benefit from the provision of Jesus' ransom sacrifice now that it has been made? Jesus showed that in the model prayer he left for us:

Matthew 6:9-10 (New American Standard Bible)
9"Pray, then, in this way:
'Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10'Your kingdom come
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.

A study and understanding of what that kingdom is, what it will do it will help you see that this kingdom will teach mankind how to become perfect and finally gain the benefits of life without sin. This life will include world peace, perfect health, and no more old age or death.



I'm not saying that Satan doesn't influence mankind. God's word is clear on his influence over mankind:
Ephesians 2:1-3 (New International Reader's Version)
1 You were living in your sins and lawless ways. But in fact you were dead. 2 You used to live as sinners when you followed the ways of this world. You served the one who rules over the spiritual forces of evil. He is the spirit who is now at work in those who don't obey God.

3 At one time we all lived among them. We tried to satisfy what our sinful nature wanted to do. We followed its longings and thoughts. God was angry with us and everyone else because of the kind of people we were.

Today we have these 3 influences that prevent us from being able to serve God perfectly:
1- Satan's influence which includes that of his demons (fallen angels)
2- The world which is under Satan's control (2 Corinthians 4:4)
3- the sin we've inherited from Adam

God's kingdom will remove Satan, destroy the world powers under his dominion and restore mankind to perfection and finally mankind will have the ability once again to stand before God in a perfect and sinless state.

This post has been edited by CrazyDwarf: Oct 28 2007, 09:36 PM

Hi CDwarf, you are right of course, what I meant to say is that, when we accept the gospel, our sins are cleansed and we are made righteous in the sense that we can now in spirit come in the presence God - in this world. I hope I make some sense here. If not, then let's just leave it as you say, as I agree with you. I can't agree with you about 9/11 though. We have round the clock prayer over here you know, even before the incident we saw it in Psalm 102 when many (not me) had visions and concluded fire and smoke (we thought it would be burned though) but most importantly, a renewal(not revival) would happen, people turning to God. We even have a pastor who took many pics when he was there and we asked him why and he said "because I felt God told me "Next time you come, this tower won't be here". That was in 2001 before the vision and psalm 102. of course Christians get a lot of revelation, but revelation is for prayer , not to reveal to the world.

On another note, when I said Christian babies and children can die as a result of open doors to continued sin without repentence, I actually intended to later further explain that sometimes it's just because of sicknesses (of course the root would be the devil), enviroment, an incident etc but I guess I just never got to it because when I got "hit", I forgot to carry on. I won't here but I must add, there is always "Healing" I've seen numerous polio cases walk, blind eyes see, deaf ears open, my own husband has prayed for a lady with one leg shorter than the other and it physically grew out to the same length. Awesome!!

About driving when sleepy, yeah.., I suppose he didn't need Satan's help...

As for miracles.. I believe that they happened just as described in the Bible. I also know that servants of God are not the only ones who can perform miracles. You'll agree with me I'm sure that Pharaoh's priests who copied Moses' miracles did not receive their powers from God? The angels who abandoned their heavenly positions and came down to Earth during Noah's time, had powers we can't imagine to be able to "materialize" for themselves human bodies. In all these instances, "miraculous" things occurred, yet definately NOT by God's power or in accord to his divine will.

I also firmly agree with you that Satan does whatever he can to "play with our minds" as you put it and tries to distract people from coming to an accurate knowledge of the truth about God. Alien and UFO citing as well as the bleeding portraits and such things for which some churches like to collect admission "donations?" from their adherents to see... are often the manipulation of the uneducated by those who are immoral and would steal from the poor to line their own purse. Then there is Evolution, the willful choice of the "educated" to remove God from their interpretations of scientific fact. All these are the influence of Satan as he "blinds the minds" of those who don't believe the truth about God.

Satan doesn't need people dressing up as demons, murderers, witches, warlocks and prostitutes (during Halloween for example) to serve him, he's content with people who don't worship God in truth.

Oh dear no hope for me then...I dont go to church...I dont pray...I dont sing hymns..read the Bible..none of that. BUT...I dont kill..I dont lie (only if it is to spare someones feelings may I tell a 'white lie' perhaps)..I dont steal...I try to see the other persons point of view first and understand why they may have said/reacted in such a way...I am not perfect (almost but not quite!! lol have a few more pounds to lose!) but I dont worship Satan....although I do think he hides in my bathroom scales!

Im sorry, dont wish to be flippant but I do get slighty miffed when religious God fearing folk tell me that because I dont 'worship' God and read the Bible then I must be one of Satans mates therefore, in their eyes im evil (only when the menapause hits me am I really evil..ask my man... ).

I have no idea why I live my life the way I do. My parents never went to church so neither did I. Only when I was at boarding school was I forced to and I sat there...and I sang..and nothing..didnt mean a thing...wasnt happy..wasnt sad..just didnt mean anything to me..only thing it meant was I had to get up early on a Sunday..and go sit near the organ pipes (surprised Im not deaf!!).

My daughter wasnt christened..why? because I thought it was hypocrytical to do that when it just didnt mean anything to me -now she is older of course, should she wish to that is her decision..and it will be fine.

I am god mother to my best friends son..when she asked me to do that I told her that Im not 'religious' in any way but if it meant that should anything happen to her I would look after him and be there for him then yes...indeed. To be honest, I didnt have to be made a god mother to do that for her but it made her happy so I agreed. Her words to me were.."you are barking Debbie but I couldnt think of anyone I want more to be god mother"....Im hoping she meant she wanted me because of me being me and NOT because she couldnt find anyone else...must ask her!

Im wandering off (again) but want I wanted to say was, that just because I dont go to church..dont read the Bible and dont pray doesnt make me a Satanist...far from it!

Uh, what's your stance on fornication, Dollyeyes?

Just wonderin'.