Thought a new thread would be better than distracting from the original intent of one of our other topics: Religion > Revelation: End Times (http://www.thoughtvent.com/forums/add-reply-f15-to21.html), but I did want to comment on a couple posts within that thread.

This is not intended as a personal attack on anyone, rather a huge sadness on my part that so often assumptions are made by those that consider themselves ‘the’ one with an “accurate understanding of God’s message”.

(Quote) “I keep replying because he's ignorant of what the Bible says. He's familiar with a bit of it, but has never studied it has never made sense of any of it” (Unquote)

I wonder how one makes assumptions like this. Priests, Ministers, Clergymen, Nuns – all these groups and more have people who have walked away from their Faith. And surely each of them had, often for a lifetime before making this decision, an “accurate understanding of God’s message”, studied the Bible and was far from ignorant of what it said.

Religion is right for many but for many others they have chosen to stop believing. Not suddenly nor based on ignorance or lack of understanding of God’s message’, rather based on an intelligent choice – for them.

There is a huge, HUGE difference between ignorance (lacking knowledge of a particular subject or misunderstanding of that subject) and intentional neglect of accurate understanding because one choses a different course. You're quoting me in the above post and there is no need to protect me from my own words. I'm ignorant of many things, my limited education means I'm constantly reading up on things I don't quite understand and many of them I never will because I don't have the time to spend on learning fully the things I find interesting. You are the same way, so is MattV and so is every other participant in this forum, all other forums, in fact every human is ignorant in one one way or another about most things. That's what makes learning so enjoyable for most of us!

From a Christian point of view, ignorance of God is all around us just as we are ignorant of many, many things. Some chose to lead lives in accord with God's laws even though they have limited knowledge of all of God's wonders, others know God very well and chose to disobey (Satan the Devil, the Pharisees of Jesus' time, Judas Iscariot, and the first human Adam just to name a few). Ignorance does not make one wicked just as accurate knowledge does not make one unrighteous from God's perspective.

As for my understanding of God, his purpose for mankind, his reasons for creating us, why he permits wickedness and ignorance of him to continue on, this knowledge continues to improve on a weekly, monthly and yearly basis. Is my understanding today the completely accurate comprehension of all things about God that they can be, never requiring further study and deeper learning in that area... of course not. Do I believe though that I'm on a better path then someone who does not recognize God, Yes!. Do I believe I'm on a better path then someone who does not recognize the Bible as God's message to his creation. Yes. If I didn't believe these things, I wouldn't spend my time in study of the Bible.

As for reasons why people walk away from their faith in God, that has nothing to do with weather their knowledge of God was accurate or not. Many have witnessed the hypocrisy of their religion and have left. Some have misunderstood something and have left. Others could not get answers to simple questions about God from their religious leaders and left. Some wanted to get a divorce and when their religion forbade it, they changed the religion of the country they ruled and made for themselves a new religion that fit into their wants (the Brits know whom I speak of). Most of these persons reasons for leaving their faith had little or nothing to do with ignorance.

As for my "assumption"... and the accuracy of my personal understanding of God, I need to keep studying, keep learning and keep readjusting my current understanding to conform to the truth about God. My concern here is not weather it's right for me... but weather it's right for God.

Once again i see something that i don't really want to reply too ,but i will.
Besides the bible and religious writings can you tell me how you know these people where ever real?
how do you know adam was the first human ?how do you know satan is real?need i go on.
In my opinion i could write a book tommorow about FREDour saviour and in a couple of thousand years everyone will worship him.
I am sorry but i believe God is a pure myth ,if he is real where is he?
Man wrote the bible not god .
And to be honest most authors these days would do better job writing scripture.
While i have read the bible to me its book of stories.
And while i commend people for having blind faith,i find that need to believe very disturbing and when ihave more time i will elaborate on it.
If jesus is our saviour why do people who worship him lose young family members ?why does he not save them?

If you're asking for me to present to you in some amalgamated format the culmination of my 20+ years of my personal study and research, and provide for you the references both Biblical and secular to provide for you this "proof" that has convinced me?.... I cant. I don't have the time to do that while caring for my family and my life. I can direct you to what you'll need to do to acquire such knowledge but weather you will accept it as "proof"... I can't say.

I'm glad you've read the Bible. I've read Shakespeare. I'm sure you'll agree with me that reading and understanding are two different things.

As for some of the things that convinced me that the Bible is God's word:

- It's historical accuracy as supported by archeology and writings of non-Biblical persons
- the fulfilled prophecies and their detail
- the honesty and openness of the writers, how they listed not only their successes but also their failures
- the internal harmony of the Bible, one message penned by 40+ persons over a period of 16 centuries.
- and the fact that the Bible is not a scientific book, but whenever it comments on scientific matters, it is always correct.

Those are just some of the factors, not just any one of them... but all of them together that have convinced me that there exists a creator, that he cares for us, and that his purpose for creating us in the first place was not to suffer and die.

The assumption that anything in the Bible is in any sense a communication from God is added to by the assumption that there is only ONE accurate and true interpretation, and that interpretation is in the hands of the person so assuming.
All of these are assumptions, and all of them are dubious to say the least.
Z

You assume that God does not exist therefore your assumption prevents you from acknowledging that anything could exist as a result of some action on God's part.

Your assumption is just as religious as mine, though some seem to take offense when I compare the two.

On this point we agree. I'm constantly researching things that have piqued my interest. Hell, I'm nearly fifty, and I'll be starting college soon!

What of those that never had any? Never believed in the existence of a deity? It seems as though the vast majority think that belief in a deity is hardwired into our brains. It's not. We are born with absolutely no innate abilities or abstract knowledge at all. A human being's brain is like a brand new hard drive - empty - when born. A newborn chipmunk instinctively knows, at birth, where to go to feed. A baby does not. Without the intervention of another, it would simply starve to death. Everything we know we have learned. Everything. And our emotional responses to different things are colored by what we have been taught. Simple causality. Something that our Western culture has taught us is abhorrent might simply be part of another people's culture. When Christianity was inflicted upon this continent, the missionaries and "decent" people were horrified to see women going about their business with their breasts exposed!! And much of the Puritanism that was introduced by the invaders still manifests itself in our society today. I mean think about it - people shooting each other and blowing each other up; blood, brains, guts all over the floors, walls, furniture and landscape, or a couple making love to one another. The first is OK for kids to watch at the Saturday Matinee, but the other is obscene?!?* Seems like a seriously skewed system of "values" to me.


And if you come to the conclusion that they are one and the same... "A difference that makes no difference, is no difference".

Right?


* Now, thanks to the I-net, they can watch both.

Corollary:

You assume that "God" does exist, therefore, your assumption prevents you from acknowledging that anything could exist as a result of some action by anything but "God".


Interesting...

Not picking here. Just comparing two equally valid statements.

On the contrary...

I don't believe God is responsible for everything. I believe God's given mankind the ability to pick and chose what we will say and do, hence Adam had a choice to make, follow God's direction and let him chose what is "right and wrong" for mankind or make that decision himself. Adam chose to live independent of God's moral laws. Today's problems such as crime, violence, sickness and death exist as the result NOT of God's making but of mankinds independent of God.

Trust me if they did that it was by no means a intelligent choice....

I mean no disrepect to you but your above words are difficult.

For it takes Faith, lots and lots of Faith, to believe in God. And faith, for many, is not based on intelligence.

And it can be an intelligent choice for many to walk away from faith - or for that matter, to choose to never have it. Once again assumptions are being made as it's
okay that the opposite is your opinion but it's difficult when it's stated as a fact.

It seems to me that an honest, diligent, and authentic desire to search for the truth involves the difficult and very brave task of "bracketing" all that one has believed to be true at the very beginning of the journey. Like Descartes, one must initially doubt everything, establish criteria for what one can then accept as clearly and distinctly true, and then test one's beliefs and ideas against those rules.

Z

Yes. A belief that isn't based on being open minded and researching for oneself is surely simply a belief based on other people's opinions. We must perhaps always remember that leaders, religious or other, are humans and as such are apt to put their own 'slant' on things.

I've always found it odd that if one takes one sect of Christianity only and asks each leader of his or her congregation for an interpretation, one is apt to get an entire range of interpretations. Ergo, to accept only one as the 'truth' is to accept that the human saying so is 'superior and above' all others that have studied the same Bible. (Again, speaking of these within the same sect).

I read the bible that says there are 2 powers in the world - God and Satan. And every individual belongs to either God or Satan in the spirit sense no in betweens. Satan's demons are free to do what he wants to unbelievers, and if one is a believer, God has a standard of holiness esp he is very guarded on the 1st commandment from what I know and have observed. Example, when bad things happen to other goodChristians, everyone is like why why why. Others just keep quiet. In our country (unlike USA and the west or europe), we are fortunate to have people to will come to God in all night prayer and fasting and ask god for answers - and God is faithful and answers each time. We had this Christian friend couple, so "Christian", even I couldn't compare, but their only child was born with a cleft pallate. If you know Jesus personally, you'd know he didn't do that but I demanded from God day and night why he allowed the devil to do this. After 10 months, God show me a vision that when they got married, they had gone thru a Hindumarriage ceremony and bowed down to idols and the spirits had ruled the marriage since then. (you probably notice Hinduism with much associated with deaf and dumb spirits Refer India). I asked them and they admited because the guy was afraid of his father. This was timely because the child was not eating, on drips etc and as soon as they asked jesus to forgive them, renounced what they did, you should see the child now...Revelation from God are P+C , so until today their Christians friends are like "Why did God allow?

there was this real godly woman(she was not pretending) and had breast cancer. She asked God why, the pastors asked, the members asked because we just knew she really loved jesus. (Christians believe sin is an open door for the devil) and yet we knew there was something she must have done because jesus will not allow this on his people. Finally God revealed thru vision dancing scences from Bollywood films. Apparently, the dancing movements had "lustful" meanings (like classical Indian dance that has meanings in each m'ment) and it transferred onto her. We later asked her and she said she watched Bollywood films esp the dancing 4-5 hours daily. We cast out the lustful spirit and she was healed. Of course being P+C, the whole church was like "Why did God allow this" 100X When there is sin, the devil can do what he wants. .

The Achehs are the worst of killers. They dragged american Christian children thru the streets till they die and leave them there. Did God send tsunami to punish them? NO, their sin allowed the devil to do this. On a flight from israel to SE Asia, our itinery pastor prayed and beside him was another also praying fervently. Our pastor was delighted and after a while, this guy casually says he's a Satan worshipper, their organisation is praying and had fasted 40 days just on water to bring earthquakes for 2007. He actually said "May the best man win". All these may sound "unbelievable, this is inot hearsay. I was there on all the above occasions.

Every case that comes to us for prayer on "why did God allow", there is always some sort of sin invloved. Sometimes I'd say to God, Huh, this one is different. Completely holy. Why did you allow. And God has never failed to reveal "hidden sin". I myself am suprprised hoe we humans can give such a "godly" front to our friends but behind....I am not an exception too because we live in a fallen world that belongs to Satan today.

Just so I understand this correctly ...

When bad things happen to people, including infants and children, it's because they or their parents have sinned?

Oops, nearly forgot ...

(Quote) "I read the bible that says there are 2 powers in the world - God and Satan. And every individual belongs to either God or Satan in the spirit sense no in betweens.". (Unquote).

Hmmm. Surely it's not mean that people such as myself who do not believe in God "belong to Satan"?

This post has been edited by Mara: Oct 23 2007, 12:10 AM