There are many differing views with regards to God's abilities. Some claim that "Since God has the power to see the future, he sees everything in the future therefore he knows everything that will happen in advance, therefore he's seen the outcome of Adam's fall before it happened (before Adam was even created), therefore since God made him anyway, God created Adam knowing in advance he would sin and lead mankind into sin therefore God created sin by going through and creating Adam........" Or some version of this type of reasoning.

The above is an absolutist version of God's powers. This view assumes that God is a slave to his powers and can't control them.

Others view God as in full control of his abilities. He can see the future as we can see in front of us... that is if we chose to open our eyes. But also like us, we can focus on individual things without seeing everything, as we've also got the ability to look only in a specific direction without seeing everything around us.

This view assumes that God's powers are subject only to his will.

Just curious what you thought.

If one assumes that God is eternal, then he exists (we suppose) at every moment in time; thus--- past, present, and future tenses would have no meaning (we suppose) to him. This assumption seems (we suppose, based on our own existential experience) to suggest that to predicate foreknowledge or will ( since the latter implies a projection towards a future state of affairs) to whatever special manner of existence he has would be at least confusing and probably unwarranted.

To apply human conceptions like "knowing the future" or "willing Adam to fall" or to imply that God could "create" anything, seems meaningless unless God is not eternal or at the very least exists in time as we understand it. The only other alternative explanation is that God does exist in time, but uniquely and differently; but then we cannot understand how and in what way this could be, so it would be meaningless to talk about it.
Z

Of all things created by God, the Bible never mentions "time" as one of his creations. Though it does refer to God's marking of seasons so we could keep track of time (Gen. 1:14).

Your use of one finite definition of "eternal" which is quite contrary to the other meanings of the term also lend themselves to an Absolutist view of God.

Vine's Dictionary of Bible Words definition of "eternal" goes to the original Greek which carries no such connotations with it.

This post has been edited by CrazyDwarf: May 7 2008, 08:33 PM

Time is for man not God. Many references are made of Before time.

2 Timothy 1:9 "...this Grace was given us in Christ Jesus BEFORE the beginning of time..."

Titus 1:2 "a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised BEFORE the beginning of time,..."

And in discussion of your first post: God chose us before the world was created.

Ephesians 1:4 "For He chose us in Him BEFORE the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in His sight...."

1 Peter 1:20 "He was chosen BEFORE the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for you sake...." Refering to Christ being chosen as the Redeemer of mankind.

Cross reference to this point -

Revelation 13:8 "All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast - all who's names have not been written in the Book of Life, belonging to the Lamb that was slain from BEFORE the creation of the world."

This post has been edited by Vicki: May 8 2008, 08:29 AM

Yes Vickie, the New Interlinear Version has some difficulty with these expressions of time.

2 Timothy 1:9 (King James Version)
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

2 Timothy 1:9 (Young's Literal Translation)
who did save us, and did call with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, that was given to us in Christ Jesus, before the times of the ages,

2 Timothy 1:9 (Darby Translation)
who has saved us, and has called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to [his] own purpose and grace, which [was] given to us in Christ Jesus before [the] ages of time,


The other passages you quoted carry similar references to time. As for God's view of time, the idea that time does not exist for God is found nowhere in the Bible. Maybe some other religions make differing claims but the Bible describes as God as the "Great Time Keeper" if you will (the expression is mine).

Acts 1:7 (New International Version)
He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.

Consider the account in Daniel, when Babylon fell. The night that mysterious handwriting appears on the walls. Note Daniels translation of the writing to the King.

Daniel 5:24-28 (New International Version)
26 "This is what these words mean:
Mene [b] : God has numbered the days of your reign and brought it to an end.

To say that "Time is for man not God" would seem inaccurate when considering even just these two texts.

This post has been edited by CrazyDwarf: May 8 2008, 11:19 PM

Even in your quote - God is using man's time - because that is what we know. Just as He would use a natural event from earth to do His heavenly will.

So in Genesis Ch. 1 & 2. The reference to "day" which time period used by man is that a reference to?

The passage in Daniel above is measured in human terms but was set by God. Not using some scheme developed by man but by his own patience and justice and judgment. Then when that time elapsed, he notified man that it was his time to put an end to Babylonian rule has come and he would be executing his will on the nation.

The Bible does not indicate as to the brand of watch God wears on his wrist, but he is the most accurate time keeper.

CD - I am agreeing that God created time - for man. He has no need to live within the constraints of "our" time. And I believe after we pass on WE will no longer live with "time", in the sense of a 24 hour day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year.

If we lived on another planet our sense of "time" would be different, because of planetary rotations and revolutions.

This post has been edited by Vicki: May 16 2008, 08:49 AM

I never said that "God created time". No sure who's statement you are in agreement with on that one. The Bible discussion of time never hints on it being created, only measured. It speaks of God's setting of certain time limits with regards to mans activities, including how long he will tolerate mankind ignoring his laws. Your references of God having 'no need to live within constraints of "our"time' I do agree with. We live within the constraints of the times he sets.

As for other planets, 1 minute on Mars is the same as 60 seconds on Pluto. The length of days might differ that's all.

As for 'passing on'... Lazarus 'passed on' and made no reference to any existence beyond "space and time". Even in this area, my hope is firmly set on the Bible's promise stated in Psalm 37:9-11, 28-29

9 For evil men will be cut off,
but those who hope in the LORD will inherit the land.

10 A little while, and the wicked will be no more;
though you look for them, they will not be found.

11 But the meek will inherit the land
and enjoy great peace.

28 For the LORD loves the just
and will not forsake his faithful ones.
They will be protected forever,
but the offspring of the wicked will be cut off;

29 the righteous will inherit the land
and dwell in it forever.

My hope is to spend lots of time right here on Earth, with 24 hour days, forever.

This post has been edited by CrazyDwarf: May 20 2008, 01:22 AM

I want to be on the "new" earth - the perfect one, forever.

This may sound like a stupid question, but do you think there will be animals in Heaven? I like to think there will be, or hope anyway.
I can do without the marrying and giving in marriage, but I REALLY hope there are critters - then I'd know I was in heaven No bugs please.

My hope has nothing to do with Heaven. I have no hopes of living elsewhere then on Earth, as a human, forever. That's a hope held out in the Bible: Eternal Life as Humans, here on Earth.

With respect,I find your post confusing,for someone who gives the impression,they are well versed with the Scriptures.
Your hopes of living here on Earth,forever is a pipe Dream.
We all succumb to death at some point.
In the Bible,Eternal life is refering to life hereafter.I'm an Agnostic,and even I know that.

This post has been edited by DSTM: May 25 2008, 04:21 PM

I think we're straying from the original thread.... I've posted a reply to your comment here DSTM in a new thread.

This post has been edited by CrazyDwarf: May 26 2008, 01:41 PM