EDIT: Perhaps "inherent" is the wrong word. What I mean is "ever present" or something similar.

Simply, I find any effort of a person to make themselves look better than they really are to be a weakness. A weakness of the mind. My reasoning believes such things to be, at best, silly. I do not see or understand the purpose of these things to exist at all in society. Why do you dress up? Basically, for other people. Therefore, to solve this dilemma, everyone must revolt against such idiocies. Nothing is needed beyond basic sanitation, simple haircut, and simple clothes. To do more, I believe is wrong.

As you can conclude, women are the worshipers of this living method. Of course some men too, but men mostly care little for their looks, but certainly nothing like women. Therefore, I find all people who follow this style of living to be "inferior". I can interact with them, treat them like another person, but in my mind I know who they really are.

Everyone was raised to believe this style of living was ok, especially women. I see little girls wearing high heals, and other adult female clothes, and it disgusts me to think their parents force them to do that. These girls will grow up with this weakness, not even knowing it. Some women try to revolt, and be "tomboys", but it doesn't always stick. Often, the few women I see who wear simple clothes with no makeup or any of that junk, will still "dress up" for special occasions.

I'd also like to point out that dressing provocatively violates my belief as well, perhaps more so. As I'm sure you know, women once again reign supreme in this area as well. Everywhere I go, I see these young women dressing provocatively and it disturbs me. Men trying to look cool by looking like gangsters or whatever disturbs me too. They are not being natural and I always feel disgusted when I see such displays.

I'm not so radical to think we must all walk around without clothes. Like I said, simple clothes will do. Nothing extravagant. So basically I believe people should abstain from being anything but natural. To do otherwise is to lie about who you are. Women are rarely natural, making them inherently inferior to those who are natural.

This post has been edited by solaris32: Apr 1 2008, 11:16 AM

To suggest that these "flaws" are inherent means that they are natural and a properly therefore apply to each and every woman; from my own experience, I find this not to be the case, so I suspect that one cannot argue they are inherent. I would suggest that social expectations provide a far better explanation than natural propensity for taking care of appearances.
To say they are inherent to women would imply, I think, that they are not so to men, or they would not be a defining characteristics. Yet if one takes a look at modern life one finds many males exhibiting the same sort of characteristics; the EMO trend among teen boys, the local gym filled with 20-ish men working their pecs, older men using Rogain and getting rid of the grey.
It may, though, be natural that while in breeding age, both sexes take care of their appearance to attract the best mate.

It is, I think, a matter of interpretation or personal taste whether these characteristics are deemed flawed or inferior. I see no reason to think that their opposites are somehow more "natural" or inherently better. I suppose in an ideal world, everyone would wear grey jumpsuits, but would not this greatly diminish the variety of individuals and make the human world a dull sameness?
Z

"Simply, I find any effort of a person to make themselves look better than they really are to be a weakness."

I consider lowering your standards to fit yourself right now instead of giving the effort to improve yourself (both mentally, and physically) as a weakness.

I think your rant is nothing more than a gross rationalization as to why you're willing to settle and reject those who wish to improve upon themselves. Really, I think you just don't want to take the time and effort to tidy up your appearance, and you are just trying to rationalize that opinion in a way that's simply wrong. I doesn't make you look better than you really are to wash your face and put on a shirt and tie, it just brings out the best in your personality and yes, appearance.

You seem to be bitter about relationships with women, and I don't have any idea why. All the topics you've started have dealt with why relationships are completely and utterly dumb and what irritates you about women. And really, it's starting to become a little tiring, even for me.

Guess what, if relationships aren't always fair, well, then welcome to life. Deal with it.

I'm just giving my opinion. Sorry you don't like me coming out and saying what I feel Sphinx. I know full well most people won't understand.

Zarathustra, perhaps "inherent" was the wrong term to use. I was trying to say that these traits are found in almost everybody.

I just think people should find other things to waste their time with than looks. I believe I have done a pretty good job of explaining my opinion and how I feel. My threads are generally well thought out and provide clearly explained reasons and justifications. Thank you for the comments and please keep them coming people .

I understand you better than you think, Solaris.

The problem with your logic is your sweeping generalizations. Not everyone has the same personality as you, so not everyone wants to dress like you. You forget that people dress up in certain clothes as a form of expression of their personality. If you meet someone who wears bright colors every day, that tells you about them. If you meet someone that wears fancy clothes every day, that tells you about their personality. Your assumption that people only dress in clothes meant to impress is completely unjustified.

Some people dress only to impress, but that's because their attitude dictates that they need to impress. So really, even those people that wear those types of clothes do it as an expression of their personality.

For example, this Friday I have an interview at the University I'm going to about a special program they have. I respect the University, the interviewers, and the program, so the way I dress will reflect that. That means for me, a tie, dress shirt, and dress pants. If I go in jeans and a t-shirt, I would be announcing to the interviewers that this is obviously not very important to me. Maybe people shouldn't make first impressions based on dress, but because people dress because of their personality, people do it. And it's really not a big deal to take five minutes more to dress to reflect how you feel about something.

And since when is dressing up making you better than you really are? All your doing when you dress up is showing the better parts of your personality that are already there. That's another unjustified sweeping generalization.

Your first paragraph says everyone should basically dress the same way. But here's the problem-People don't THINK the same way, so why would they dress the same?

Tomboys wear the clothes they do, not because they're "rebelling against the system," but probably because they had guy siblings or friends and played with them, and developed a more boyish attitude. So they wear clothes to reflect their ATTITUDE.

Basically, your reasoning as to why people wear the clothes they do is completely incorrect, and really, this is tiring, because we went over this same topic already when you were complaining about the stupid things in relationships. Give it a break.

Perhaps making some distinctions will clarify the discussion. For example, there are indeed people who spend a lot of time and money in an effort to appear fashionable (for lack of a better word, and remembering that "fashion" can be determined by a sub-culture). Some people do this out of necessity (rock entertainers or people running for public office, or funeral palour directors) where role-expectations are high. Again, when at age when serious dating begins, many will be extremely careful about their appearance; at the same time those in this age group will try out different roles (persona) causing a certain maintenance in appearance. Perhaps a third case concerns much older people who, through art, wish to some extent to deny their age (as more of the population falls into the category of "senior citizens" this may change). All of these categories---others come to mind I am sure--- seem to be explainable as a function of social roles.

Now at the same time, there are also people---both men and women---whose extreme care about their looks cannot be completely explained by their choice of social roles. The explanation may well be found in their upbringing or by psychological compulsions. One might look to existential psychological analysis to determine if they are attempting to create self-being through outward appearances.

Discussion of both categories can be fruitful, I think, as long as one is clear about which is being analyzed.
Z

Hi Solaris

Guess what, I'm a girl, how about something from my side of the fence?

I dress for what the situation calls for as pointed out by others. If I'm out working in the yard or around the house, there is no make-up and jeans or cut-offs depending on the weather.

If I'm going to a function or other social event I dress accordingly.

Men are part of the problem. Ha, didn't expect that huh.

As my husband has stated on several occasions, I am a reflection of him, if I go around looking like a bum, how does that look?

Since there are so many women who work so hard on themselves, the competion to keep the attention on yourself is amazing. Now that I have been married forever, its not so much a problem, because I am now sure of my man, but let me tell you about the fear of losing your mate to a prettier bird. If you don't take pride in your appearance, the eye can wander over to the table with the "pretty" girls.

By the way, WHO invented the social trappings? MEN!

What I'm saying is the world would be a better place if no one sought to dress to impress. Sure wearing conservative clothes that reflects your personality is fine, but why are you doing that? Look at yourself in the mirror? Of course not, it's for other people which is exactly what I said. Whatever the role calls for, like a sewage worker etc., of course it's ok to change clothes. But dresses and other things are completely useless except for looks. And no I'm not trying to impose my will, and I know people all think differently, I'm just sharing my particular viewpoint.

Vicki, I am aware that many men expect their female companions to dress up, and this is also a problem.

Asking why people dress because of their personality is like asking why people talk because of their personality. Or why they do anything because of their personality.

It's because it's just WHO THEY ARE.

And why do the clothes have to be conservative? What if you don't have a conservative personality?

"Of course not, it's for other people which is exactly what I said."

And, that's an incorrect arguement, which is exactly what I said.

"What I'm saying is the world would be a better place if no one sought to dress to impress."

I'll ignore the fact that you once again made the invalid statement that people only dress to impress, and say that the world would not be a better place without individuality. It seems to me that you just want uniformity to fit you, but the world doesn't think like you, or act like you, so it shouldn't be made to fit you. And that goes for everyone.

This whole debate comes down to the fact that you assume the only reason people wear anything is to impress other people. And that entire arguement is invalid, for reasons stated many times in previous posts. Yes, a few do only dress to impress, but once again, that is becasue their personality dictates they must impress, so they are still dressing based on who they are.

Masks and uniforms are probably socially necessary and a form of common and easily recognisable communication between people. The waiter eager for a generous tip will be well-groomed, follow the expected forms of courtesy for his role, and pretend to faun over the people at his tables; in this sense, everyone is as much an actor as is the professional playing the role of Hamlet.
I am sure, moreover, that Sphinx "dresses up" not only to make an acceptable impression, but to re-affirm his role as candidate for an academic goodie. It is important that he shows that he understands this role and is willing to conform to it from the view of the people sitting across the table. He no doubt will have rehearsed responses to expected questions and certain useful phrases, and will be on his "best behavior." One may very well have academic credentials of the highest order, but these can certainly be negated in other people's perspectives if one wipes his nose on his sportcoat sleeve; for candidates arejudged by whether they understand a bit about common social situations as well.

"My station and its duties." Z goes on a date, and dresses up; is this to "impress" the date, or to indicate that the situation is not just and simply two people going somewhere together, but a REAL DATE (with all the implications for the future implied). There is intentionality here, as well as an indication of a project at hand. Society is replete with such rituals, and if one wants to participate, one learns the actions and gestures required. But at the same time, everyone understands that these are just- - - rituals. Z will impress his date (or he won't) by revealing himself (or initially some aspects of himself), not by the tie he sports.

Z works in a large corporate office, and when he is summoned to his boss's office, always puts on a sportjacket. Now is Z trying to impress his boss, or is Z following a accepted company ritual?

I am suggesting here, and most readers can add other examples, is that role-playing/acting/ritualisation is a common experience and practice in all walks of life, and most importantly is so understood by everyone involved.
Z

"All the world's a stage"

Yep, can't argue with that.

It just takes some people longer to find out what part they are playing than it does others.

As this topic has drifted over to why people get dressed to impress i find that after working all week and being in work clothes ,i find putting on nice clothes makes me feel better when i go out,and i'm sure most women will say the same.

Point in question, housewife works at home all week wearing casual clothes and of a weekend goes out with ther husband now after a week of wearing casual clothes does she not have a right to dress and look good?and not just for her husband but also for herself.
My wife wears casual clothes around the house ,but if we go out she always looks a million dollars ,it's not a weakness, if she could she would look like this all the time but real life and children dictate how much time you can spend pampering yourself.

Dressing up is not lying about who you are ,it's a luxury that not many grown ups (people with families)afford upon themselves ,as looking after your spouse ,siblings always takes priority.

Most people aren't blind. Therefore, when we dress up, it is so these people can see it for whatever delusional ritual it stands for. I'm saying abolish these rituals, these practices that demand people dress up. It just causes social strife between those who may not be able to dress up as well.

To use the example of the job interview, say a highly qualified individual shows up for the job wearing casual clothes. After him, a semi-qualified individual shows up wearing a suit and tie. Nine times out of ten, the suit and tie guy is gonna get the job. Why? His clothes say nothing about his qualifications, about who he is, they just show he knows how to suck up. If we were all judged based on our personalities and not what some meaningless clothes say about our personality (plus it's incredibly easy to fake), the world would be a better place.

EDIT: I forgot to mention, I don't want everyone to wear gray jumpsuits and have complete uniformity, just that society's reliance on looks and clothes to be abolished. If you still want to look cool, fine. But it shouldn't be taken into account of what type of person you are, ever. I've known some really smart and kind people who dressed like trash. And some real jerks who dressed like a million dollars.

This post has been edited by solaris32: Apr 3 2008, 03:50 PM

Why do people wear Suits and Ties,at a Job interview? Haven't you heard the sayings,'First Impressions' and 'When in Rome,do as the Romans do" If you ain't got a Suit,then borrow one.In every society,there are recognized Dress Codes for every occassion.
Deviate from the norm,and you are regarded as misfit.Society is not going to change,so it's easier to comply,than fight against the System.Everybody dresses to express their personality,and if you haven't got any,then dress like a lazy Yobbo.
If Jerks, as you say, can dress like a million dollars,I can't see a problem with that.
They are probably only Jerks, in your eyes.
Persons with little money can dress properly. With no money I can go to a Charity and be given next to new clothes for nothing. So saying I cant afford nice clothes is crap.
Easy solution,don't frequent any places that require dress code.If I invited dinner guests,I would expect them to dress properly,or I would be insulted.
Also for some reason you have a low opinion of Women.Learn to treat them as your equal,and you will find,they can become such an important part of your life.I keep gettin Vibes, you have had a bad experience with a female,be it your mother,ex girlfriend or whatever,because all of your threads point to your complete dislike of the opposite Gender.

This post has been edited by DSTM: Apr 3 2008, 06:38 PM

Yes I have, and that's why I say wouldn't the world be a better place if such sayings and beliefs did not exist? Most of society, especially USA, is very caught up in looks, and it is highly annoying to me. It is a waste of time. We should be caring more for the words we say than the clothes on our back. I know it will never change, I'm just wondering who agrees with my point of view.