Not EVEN business associates with Iran since Nov. 4, 1979, hey, that was under Carter, not Reagan. Get your history and dates straight.

Interesting, Thad, now please tell me how long we have been in Japan??? How long have we been in Germany??? Care to debate the reasons on both? And here you want to cut and run before the infant government has really got set up and running. Hey, THEY made THEIR OWN Constitution, not us. THEY VOTED on said Constitution, not US!

In those that had been in power, YES!!! To the neighbors that wanted to keep the status quo, YES. To the majority of the people that were oppressed, NO!!!

Looking at recent history, it is difficult to make any kind of blanket statement. If you consider India and Pakistan, both of which had democracy forced upon them during the British Raj, both of these nations now seem to appreciate its benefits. On the other hand, there are cases that show just the opposite: many of the colonised countries in Africa seem to have rejected democracy, but not without an awful price. I think we also need to remember that it is just not democracy as such, but its peripherals such as the rule of law, an efficient and independent civil service, etc., that must be implanted in a nation.
Z

Plus Japan has an Emperor for how many years??? And how long did it take them to adjust?? I believe people like to talk off the top of their heads without looking at history.

I am inclined to agree with samuel.

Other than whether or not the "people" of Iraq are really longing for Demcracy.

I realize that I am a very skeptic person when it comes to anything taking place with any forms leadership, as it has always been my experience with politicians, and my feelings about kings, sheiks, or czars, that they all tell bigger lies than I did when I was a kid.

Been to a number of campain dinners in my life, and those people have no clue to what goes on with the day to day working people. Oh, and the deals they make in private then announce to the public are many times 180% opposite from what we hear.

Then there is my dissolution with any historical prints.

Now I know you couldn't find here just how I was agreeing with samuel, but maybe this next statement will tie it all together.

It seems logical to me that you must be knowledgable about your history, so that you may draw conclusions from things in the past, so you can make better decisions for today. ( see I agree)

I am just not so nieve as to put 100% belief in any publication regarding historical facts, so I talk with the "VETS" who were there. I keep in personal touch with some of the politicians I don't trust, and I listen to people like SAMUEL before I come to any "absolute" conclusions.

I need the input from samuel, so that he can point out my miscontrued interpitations.

I am not the see all to end all, "blessed one", but I know I would like the opportunity to rule the world!

Yep, I would be ruthless in many areas, specially when it comes to crime and punishment. But I would also be the first to change my views when someone like samuel comes along to show me the errors in my logic.

So when you apply this to your vote, think about whether you should vote for someone set in their ways, or should you vote for someone who has the ability to see the mistakes in his line of thinking, and then is able to adopt to a better idea!

Love & Peace,
John

With 4000 US war dead, and 30,000 injured,I fail to see the importance of staying there.They no longer are a Military threat to anybody.IMO. I think it going to be another Vietnam,all over again. Why should the US regard it so important, to ram Democracy down their throats. The only invasion, I would be concerned about, is the one south of your Country.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops..._casualties.htm

I have to agree; "it's starting to look just like NAM", and just like "NAM" when we do pull out, it will be the biggest and strongest "BULLY" that will rule Iraq.

I would like to make one other point about the death and misery:

" REMEMBER IT"S NOT JUST OUR SERVICEMEN WHO ARE BEING KILLED AND DIABLED"

LET US NOT FORGET, THAT THE MOJORITY OF PEOPLE WHO SUFFER FROM THIS "WAR"
ARE MOSTLY INNOCENT UNINVOLVED CITIZENS, THAT ARE THE TARGET OF THESE SUICIDAL TERRORIST'S.

I still hate the word Democracy, but since that's the one everyone insists on uses, so be it (Wilson was the first President to use the term about the U.S. in 1919). How long had Japan had an Emperor? How long had Germany had one (Yes, I know all about the "Weimar Republic" from 1919 to 1933)? What are they both today? My opinion is that a set of values must first be implanted along with a national pride that surpasses tribal pride. Without both, all that will happens is the tribes will go right back to killing one another when we leave.

I think everyone is kind of losing the big picture. No matter what the war started out as - we are no longer fighting the war that started. We are not trying to convert the people of Iraq to Democracy all we are doing now is allowing them the opportunity to deside how they want to govern their country while all hell is breaking out all around them.

In the power vacuum that was left when Hussein was brought down, Al Qaeda moved in.

This entity has declard war on us, and the whole non-muslum world.

Certainly the situation is far different from what everyone fantasized when the Iraq Government was toppled, and major mistakes were made during the initial occupation, as Vicki writes. One can rehash all the "what-ifs" and "might-have-beens" but we are now confronted with a reality that is as complicated as it is unpleasant, and a nation in ruins as the result of our actions.

What the average Iraqi wants is the restoration of tranquility, of services, and the hope of a better life, or even of living tomorrow; we must convince them that this is possible and that this is our goal as well, and that this can be achieved by rule of law and some form of free, representative government. Without that common goal and common effort, we will continue to see US and Iraqi blood on the streets.
Z

Up until DEC 31 2003, when Saddam was captured, The US had approx 483 War Dead,and 2483 injured.
Just to try and bring stability to Iraq,that number has grown to a shocking 4000 dead and 30,000 injured.
I think this is too high a price to pay,to help a foreign country. There are trouble spots all around the World,and no one Country can be expected to bring peace everywhere,because it's not possible. I hope the US thinks very carefully about invading another Country, who is not a direct threat to the US.If this occupation goes on for a few more years,in Iraq, I shudder at the human cost. Terrorism cannot be stopped.Allways has been, and allways will be,IMO.

Let's put this in some kind of prospective, shall we??? We lost more than that in WW 2 in TRAINING exercises!!! Our goal is NOT to bring peace every where but we already ran out on these people once and you want to do it again??? Oh boy, that will REALLY develop trust in us around the world when we want the next bunch to rise up against their oppressor will it not?? And are you suggesting that we roll over and allow the terrorist to do what ever they want to do??? I shudder to think of the cost those of your mind set are willing to allow in the name of so called peace.

I see where your coming from, 'Samuel'. We all want peace and not let Terrorism win.
Scenario. Stay there for a few more years and set up stability. The US leaves Iraq. Great. 6 months later the Parliment is attacked,blown to bits and the President and Cabinet members killed. Rival Ethnic leader takes control.What does America do?
Return and lose another 4000 lives, till stability is regained,once more. I doubt it,to be honest. If your Allies thought for one minute it was a winnable war,then they would be fighting by your side still. You just don't get it.
Why leave all these hundreds of terrorist training camps, that we know of, untouched,instead of blowing them off the face of this Earth.Go for the root of the problem would be a start. Googled,training camps all over the World, especially in Africa,and I was amazed at the sheer number.

This post has been edited by DSTM: Feb 26 2008, 02:47 AM

Okay, so what will the reality be, should we stay there for another; five, ten. twenty years?
Just like Vietnam, when we leave, the guys with the biggest guns, and most people will take over the country. PERIOD!
Then a number of years after that; just as in "Nam" we will once again re-establish trade with whom so ever might be in power!

The question once again becomes; who will be the terrorist leaders, and will they train their children to perform suicide acts agaisnt us.

IMO there are no defenses to protect anyone anywhere against terrorists!

Spending $460 billion dollars a year will never be able to stop some radical extremist from doing this:
first you get a bunch of shotgun shells
you open them up and set aside the b b's
now you get one can of childrens playdough clay
flatten the playdough out to form a disc 1 foot in diameter
place all the gun powder in the center
form a ball around the gun powder
place a wick in the top
light the wick
approach your target and die

We use to make our own M-80 firecrackers using this method, and given enough gun powder you can effectively kill yourself with a number of others around you.
That is what I-E-D's are all about.
Given how extreme these Muslim people are, there is no-amount of protection we can offer, that will prevent the suicide bombings taking place in Iraq.

These monies would be much better spent developing equipment able to sniff out the components of homemade bombs. Then even with this type of technology, the people who carry out such horrible acts. Will be satisfied with just getting to blow up the people who would be operating the equipment.

War's of this nature can never be won!
And those who would have us believe we are winning are out and out liars!!!!

We have not, and will not, be able to provide any security to those who are subject to such extremism. And if President Bush or any other leader of our nation has convinced you otherwise, well, shame on you.

We can not protect ourselfs from a kid who can't stand life anymore, and takes a gun to school.

You yourself can not protect yourself from and thug on the streets with a knife!

Why would you support a war, sacrificing your own father, mother, sons and daughters for a people who will go back to doing business as usual once we're gone???

I see many other topics here at "TV" where you would better spend your money.

Many many things, far and away more personally important than this WAR !

We are doing the same tragic things to the people of Iraq, that we did to the people of Vietnam.

We pray upon their hopes for a better life, we talk them into to helping us, (like interpeters for instance) and then we leave them there to face the people who hate our guts to exact their revenge!

The families of the people who have assisted us in Iraq are being slaughtered every day, and we aren't even trying to protect them.

So how can you believe it possible to bring peace to their country when we are unwilling to help those who have helped us?

Just because you drive around with a bumper sticker proclaiming your support for our troops doesn't mean that you haven't deserted them.

Just as you did to us "VIETNAM VETERANS"

Yeah this time you hug them and bless them when they have come home after serving their tour, but you do nothing to prevent "Uncle Sam" from sending us back for our second, third, or fourth tour.

Sure you are all up in arms about "Walter Reed Hospital" today. What about the dozens of other "Vet Hospitals" ?

Take the headlines off of us, and you go right back to sipping your mint julips and care nothing of us you have left behind closed doors!

I guess, I'm really venting now, because you guys won't even march in protest agaisnt this war, or even march for more troops in order to shorten this war!

Send over another million troops, and we can then call Iraq, "AMERICA ANNEX NUMBER ONE"

Heck when we have sucked up the last bit of oil, we will just pack our bags and go home anyway!

Now I will apologize for being so harsh.
I can only explain my anger this way; "many of us here have no right to even debate the issues of this war while we sit confortably in our homes, with full bellies and quenched thirsts!"

I am just as guilty of this as any of you!
I must be willing to get off this computer at times and voice my thoughts where they might just make a difference!

Someone here has got to know how to organize us someway. And together we will then be able
to do something other than just; "flap our gums" !