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Parents of the same gender
Mara
post Oct 22 2007, 01:27 AM
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Rather than get off-topic in another of our threads here (Religion> A women's place within Christianity ... post #16 and #20 ...
http://www.thoughtvent.com/forums/A-woman-...=5286#entry5286 , thought I'd move the topic re parents of the same gender into it's own thread.


Post #16 from above (Quote is taken out of context) ... ".....children living in same-sex marriages"

Post #20 ... referring to above quote ... "Now that is just plain wrong, and should in no way be condoned".

- - - - - - - -

I honestly don't understand why there is so often such a strong objection to any child being raised by two loving parents, same sex parents or opposite sex parents. 'Gay' parents do not create 'gay' children. Nope. And with our nutty world surely people loving and caring and teaching a child to love and care for others, regardless of their differences from the 'norm', can only be a good thing surely.
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cowsgonemadd3
post Oct 22 2007, 10:43 AM
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Homosexuality is a abomination. Its sick its dirty,not natural and its wrong. I do not think kids should be exposed to such junk.


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arcman
post Oct 22 2007, 11:19 AM
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QUOTE (cowsgonemadd3 @ Oct 22 2007, 10:43 AM) *
Homosexuality is a abomination. Its sick its dirty,not natural and its wrong. I do not think kids should be exposed to such junk.
CGM, I know you base this opinion off of what you've been taught in church. I'm curious if you have anything else you base this opinion on.
Also, the point of "not natural" is a very dubious claim, since homosexual behaviors occur in nature.


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DSTM
post Oct 22 2007, 11:38 AM
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QUOTE (cowsgonemadd3 @ Oct 23 2007, 01:43 AM) *
Homosexuality is a abomination. Its sick its dirty,not natural and its wrong. I do not think kids should be exposed to such junk.

Hi 'CGM3' How do you know, they are exposed to so called Junk? Most Parents are reponsible, and would not expose their Children ever, to anything like you are suggesting. I'm sure the Parents would show disgression.
As far as saying Homosexuality is an abomination,If you Quote the Scriptures,please give us the verses that back up your claim.
Personally,it's their choice and their business,and Who are we to Judge?


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cowsgonemadd3
post Oct 22 2007, 01:15 PM
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QUOTE
Personally,it's their choice and their business,and Who are we to Judge?


That right there can be said for a lot of things. Without laws people will do all kinds of things. Look towards europe for a example.

I am not just suggesting the sexual part of the homosexuality but the whole deal thats its somehow okay when its not. A homosexual would not teach their kids that what "they" are doing is wrong would they? I guess you would say neither would some heterosexual couples either.

QUOTE
Also, the point of "not natural" is a very dubious claim, since homosexual behaviors occur in nature.


They are not doing it in hopes of reproducing its a "power" thing. Or something like that.

Anybody who says homosexuality in humans is natural is stupid. Its quite obvious the "natural" way is for a male and female to get together and its the ONLY way to reproduce.

http://www.gotquestions.org/gay-marriage.html


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Mara
post Oct 22 2007, 01:39 PM
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Thank you Arcman and DSTM, for one must really wonder where this misunderstanding of 'gay' people arises from. Huge sigh.

(Quote) [i]"Anybody who says homosexuality in humans is natural is stupid".[/i] (Unquote)

In that case, millions of doctors, scientists and even theologians must be considered "stupid".

If I remember correctly, only Christians sites/links will be read so I do hope - honestly hope - perhaps the below site and it's full article will be read.
http://quicktolisten.org/archives/33

It is a paraphrase of a quote from the book Exilic Preaching reviewed in the magazine Christianity Today, March 2004 2. Stanley Hauerwas, The Hauerwas Reader, written by Matt Fitzgerald.

(Quoted excerpt) "...today’s thought accepts that a person’s sexual orientation is an essential, ingrained dimension of who you are. Homosexuality is no more a choice than is heterosexuality. If you’re a straight man, ask yourself, “when did I first decide I would be attracted to women?” It is a ridiculous question.

This was Paul’s first-century Jewish worldview, and it is one adopted by contemporary Christians who label homosexuality a “lifestyle” and try to convert gays and lesbians “back” into heterosexuality (as if they ever left in the first place). To my mind, subscribing to a first-century sexual anthropology that modern understandings of human sexuality have refuted makes as much sense as believing the earth is flat because the ancient Hebrew cosmology assumed it so. The earth is round. You don’t learn to be gay. You’re created that way. Neither of these realizations diminishes our appreciation for the Bible. In fact, both can enhance it.

Homophobia is not one of the Bible’s major themes. Sure, it makes the occasional appearance. But so does the justification of slavery. So does the demand that women wear hats to church. Even on 100 degree days! Most every Christian in America has rejected these latter two teachings as absolutely opposed to scripture’s primary theme: the truth of God revealed in Christ.

Back to my main point: we need to be clear in stating that our belief that homosexuality is natural, is not primarily a negative response to the Christian right. Instead, first and foremost, it is a positive theological conviction. God creates some people gay, and because God declares creation good, homosexual people must therefore be good.

Genesis doesn’t say that God made straight people on the sixth day and gay people two weeks later. We are all children of the same creation, same creator.
(Unquote)


This is not a slam against anyone, but to teach a child that others are "dirty" and on a "power trip" or anything along these lines makes me think a parent has lived an incredibly closed life and simply hasn't met (or been aware of meeting) any 'gay' people and/or their children.

Two mothers, deeply in love with each other and together for nearly 20 years. Two little children, one boy and one girl. All four attend Church regularly and are wonderful people. All other parents within the school are accepting but two sets. Both made it their business to demand that their children are not seated beside "those children" in a classroom and the school library books called something like 'Two mommies or two daddys' be blacklisted.

Their children are not seated beside "those children" (for "those children's" sake) but the books stay. Why? Simply because as one father pointed out, "Who's acting like a Christian here?".

To teach a child hate or disgust of others is not a gift.

This post has been edited by Mara: Oct 22 2007, 01:42 PM
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Conundrum
post Oct 22 2007, 02:15 PM
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Parents of same sex are not always homosexual.

I know of several that got together just to raise their children as best they could. Some are male, and some female partners.
Some had no other choice than to band together for many reasons to provide the best they could for their children.


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mz30
post Oct 22 2007, 02:23 PM
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QUOTE (cowsgonemadd3 @ Oct 22 2007, 04:43 PM) *
Homosexuality is a abomination. Its sick its dirty,not natural and its wrong. I do not think kids should be exposed to such junk.


Once again i find myself not really wanting to get involved,but can't help myself.
cgm3 ,why is homesexualty an abomination?why is it sick and dirty?why is it not natural?why is it wrong?and why is it junk?
Where do these thoughts come from?
Do homesexual people interfere in your life?no?
the problem is it's not your "cuppa tea"
But no-one has the right to judge people based on there sexual prefrence and most definetly no-one has the right to say that
gay couples would not be good parents.
I have a friend who i have grown up with who is gay and he always lied about it,to the point he got married and had three children.He eventully came out when his eldest was about ten ,and then proceeded into a same sex relationship and i bet no matter what, his children where never not looked after properly,in fact he is probably the best father i know .
But back to my point cgm3how many gay people do you know?#
And if any how many are friends?


People are people no matter which sexual prefrence they have and deserve to be treated with respect.
no matter what anyone says being a good parent does not go on you being gay or straight.
It goes on whether or not you have love and guidance for a child.
And thats all that counts


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Zarathustra
post Oct 22 2007, 02:32 PM
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I would hope, CGM, that you would publicly apologise to any gay people reading your hurtful and bigoted remarks, and refrain from this kind of hate-mongering in the future. I remind you of the Forum rules:

"There will be no racial, ethnic, gender based insults or any other personal discriminations. This will not be tolerated and can lead to immediate suspension. "



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This post has been edited by Zarathustra: Oct 22 2007, 02:48 PM


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cowsgonemadd3
post Oct 22 2007, 03:28 PM
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Agreed but it was not hate mongering as I was not expressing it to a person but of the actual act of homosexuality.

A quote from me above: "Homosexuality is a abomination." I said the act not the person.

QUOTE
"In that case, millions of doctors, scientists and even theologians must be considered "stupid"."


Stupidity affects a lot of people. Mara you know where I come from when I say homosexuality is a abomination(From the Bible) and again I said nothing
about a gay person but about "homosexuality" itself.

QUOTE
Where do these thoughts come from?


Gods word the Holy Bible.

QUOTE
But back to my point cgm3how many gay people do you know?#
And if any how many are friends?


I know of one. We used to be sorta friends. I do not hate him but what he does is wrong.

QUOTE
Parents of same sex are not always homosexual.

I know of several that got together just to raise their children as best they could. Some are male, and some female partners.
Some had no other choice than to band together for many reasons to provide the best they could for their children.


I do not see any problem in that.

QUOTE
today’s thought accepts that a person’s sexual orientation is an essential, ingrained dimension of who you are. Homosexuality is no more a choice than is heterosexuality.


WRONG. If this person would have studied the Bible a bit he would know better than to say something like that.

QUOTE
"power trip"


Mara do not start taking my words and making them mean something else. I said animals do this. Not humans.

What causes people to be gay. The answer is sin. We are not born gay.

QUOTE
Two mothers, deeply in love with each other and together for nearly 20 years. Two little children, one boy and one girl. All four attend Church regularly and are wonderful people


Mara when you are a Christian you do not continue to want to live in sin. We will struggle with sin until Jesus comes back but a Christian does not want to be gay. Going to church DOES NOT mean you are a Christian nor does it mean you will go to heaven.

The Bible says nobody is good not even one. http://members.ozemail.com.au/~dekker/essays/goodenough.html

Nobody is perfect. When you become a Christian you will still struggle with sin. But Jesus will forgive you. All you have to do is ask him.

This post has been edited by cowsgonemadd3: Oct 22 2007, 03:31 PM


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"The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork" (Psalms 19:1)
If you were to die today where would you go? Learn how to go to heaven today click here!
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mz30
post Oct 22 2007, 03:43 PM
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QUOTE
I know of one. We used to be sorta friends. I do not hate him but what he does is wrong



And what gives you the right to say what he does is wrong?
Just because the bible say's it wrong does'nt make it so .
I'll finish with this if the bible told you to kill someone and it was o.k,would you?


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arcman
post Oct 22 2007, 06:44 PM
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QUOTE (cowsgonemadd3 @ Oct 22 2007, 01:15 PM) *
They are not doing it in hopes of reproducing its a "power" thing. Or something like that.

Anybody who says homosexuality in humans is natural is stupid. Its quite obvious the "natural" way is for a male and female to get together and its the ONLY way to reproduce.

http://www.gotquestions.org/gay-marriage.html
CGM, I would appreciate if you would answer my question instead of ignoring me and referring me to a website. I'm not particularly interested in what your quoted website says, I assure you I've read all of its arguments before. I want to hear YOUR opinion, not the opinion someone handed to you. You're also incorrect on your argument, I'm afraid. Although rape or male dominance does occur in nature, it does not encapsulate all homosexual acts in the wild. Nothing could be further from the truth.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...MNG3N4RAV41.DTL
QUOTE
Central Park Zoo's gay penguins ignite debate

Dinitia Smith, New York Times

Saturday, February 7, 2004

(02-07) 04:00 PDT New York -- Roy and Silo, two chinstrap penguins at the Central Park Zoo in Manhattan, are completely devoted to each other. For nearly six years now, they have been inseparable. They exhibit what in penguin parlance is called "ecstatic behavior": That is, they entwine their necks, they vocalize to each other, they have sex. Silo and Roy are, to anthropomorphize a bit, gay penguins.

When offered female companionship, they have adamantly refused it. And the females aren't interested in them, either.

At one time, the two seemed so desperate to incubate an egg together that they put a rock in their nest and sat on it, keeping it warm in the folds of their abdomens, said their chief keeper, Rob Gramzay. Finally, he gave them a fertile egg that needed care to hatch. Things went perfectly, and a chick, Tango, was born.

For the next 2 1/2 months they raised Tango, keeping her warm and feeding her food from their beaks until she could go out into the world on her own. Gramzay is full of praise. "They did a great job," he said.

Roy and Silo are hardly unusual. Indeed, scientists have found homosexual behavior throughout the animal world.

This growing body of science has been increasingly drawn into charged debates about homosexuality in American society, on subjects from gay marriage to sodomy laws, despite reluctance from experts in the field to extrapolate from animals to humans. Gay groups argue that if homosexual behavior occurs in animals, it is natural, and therefore the rights of homosexuals should be protected. On the other hand, some conservative religious groups have condemned the same practices in the past, calling them "animalistic."

But if homosexuality occurs among animals, does that necessarily mean it is natural for humans? And that raises a familiar question: If homosexuality is not a choice, but a result of natural forces that cannot be controlled, can it be immoral?

The open discussion of homosexual behavior in animals is relatively new.

"There has been a certain cultural shyness about admitting it," said Frans de Waal, whose 1997 book, "Bonobo: The Forgotten Ape" (University of California Press), unleashed a torrent of discussion about animal sexuality.

Bonobos, apes closely related to humans, are wildly energetic sexually. Studies show that whether observed in the wild or in captivity, nearly all are bisexual and nearly half their sexual interactions are with the same sex. Females have been observed to engage in homosexual activity almost hourly.

Before his own book, "American scientists who investigated bonobos never discussed sex at all," said de Waal, director of the Living Links Center of the Yerkes Primate Center at Emory University in Atlanta. "Or they sometimes would show two females having sex together, and would say, 'The females are very affectionate.' "

Then in 1999, Bruce Bagemihl published "Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity" (St. Martin's Press), one of the first books of its kind to provide an overview of scholarly studies of same-sex behavior in animals. Bagemihl said homosexual behavior had been documented in some 450 species.

Last summer, the book was cited by the American Psychiatric Association and other groups in a "friend of the court" brief submitted to the Supreme Court in Lawrence vs. Texas, a case challenging a Texas anti-sodomy law. The court struck down the law.

In his book, Bagemihl describes homosexual activity in a broad spectrum of animals. He asserts that while same-sex behavior is sometimes found in captivity, it is actually seen more frequently in studies of animals in the wild.

Among birds, for instance, studies show that 10 to 15 percent of female western gulls in some populations in the wild are homosexual. Among mammals, male and female bottlenose dolphins frequently engage in homosexual activity, both in captivity and in the wild. Homosexuality is particularly common among young male dolphin calves. One male may protect another that is resting or healing from wounds inflicted by a predator. When one partner dies, the other may search for a new male mate.

Male and female rhesus macaques, a type of monkey, also exhibit homosexuality in captivity and in the wild. Males are affectionate to each other, touching, holding and embracing. Females smack their lips at each other and play games like hide-and-seek, peekaboo and follow the leader. And both sexes mount members of their own sex.

Some scientists say homosexual behavior in animals is not necessarily about sex. Marlene Zuk, a professor of biology at UC Riverside and author of "Sexual Selections: What We Can and Can't Learn About Sex From Animals" (University of California Press, 2002), notes that scientists have speculated that homosexuality may have an evolutionary purpose, ensuring the survival of the species. By not producing their own offspring, homosexuals may help support or nurture their relatives' young. "That is a contribution to the gene pool," she said.

Janet Mann, a professor of biology and psychology at Georgetown University who has studied same-sex behavior in dolphin calves, says their homosexuality "is about bond formation, not about being sexual for life."

She said studies show that adult male dolphins form long-term alliances, sometimes in large groups. As adults, they cooperate to entice a single female and keep other males from her. Sometimes they share the female, or they may cooperate to help one male.

"Male-male cooperation is extremely important," Mann said. The homosexual behavior of the young calves "could be practicing" for that later, crucial adult period, she added.

Scientists warn about drawing conclusions about humans. "For some people, what animals do is a yardstick of what is and isn't natural," Vasey said. "They make a leap from saying if it's natural, it's morally and ethically desirable."

But he added: "Infanticide is widespread in the animal kingdom. To jump from that to say it is desirable makes no sense. We shouldn't be using animals to craft moral and social policies for the kinds of human societies we want to live in. Animals don't take care of the elderly. I don't particularly think that should be a platform for closing down nursing homes."

What the animal studies do show, Zuk observed, is that "sexuality is a lot broader term than people want to think."

"You have this idea that the animal kingdom is strict, old-fashioned Roman Catholic," she said, "that they have sex just to procreate."

In bonobos, she noted: "you see expressions of sex outside the period when females are fertile. Suddenly, you are beginning to see that sex is not necessarily about reproduction."

That last line said it for me already, but quite obviously in both the animal world and the human one, sex involves much more than reproduction.
As the article rightly states, we shouldn't necessarily inference what happens in the animal world as constituting moral behavior among humans (plz no one eat your baby because you saw some fish do it, k thx), but what it DOES say is that as Mara has mentioned, homosexuality is absolutely not a chosen behavior. It would have been a lot easier for those two penguins to have a chick (egg chick, not female chick, don't be clever now), if they would have just stopped "choosing" to be gay and had some sex with one of the available females. But they never chose to be gay any more than you have chosen to be heterosexual, and obviously the same is true for people. Honestly, people aren't going to choose to be gay if they can help it. Why would a large group of people elect to become a social minority? It would be like choosing to be black in the southern pre-civil war. What is most immediately obvious to anyone who has had a 2 minute conversation with a gay person about their sexuality is that they don't have any more control over who they are attracted to than anyone else, and as such I'm consistently dismayed at the number of people that are willing to degrade and punish them for something they have no control over.


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Mara
post Oct 22 2007, 07:48 PM
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I'm sad, honestly sad about the misconceptions so many have about homosexuals - whether it's based on religion or otherwise. But when I read the sensitive and understanding comments of other members, I still have great hope for our future generations.

CGM, when I read your words, "A quote from me above: "Homosexuality is a abomination." I said the act not the person", I want to believe this was an apology for the hurt caused to others, whether intentional or not.

But please look at your 'apology' this way. Homosexuality is an abormination - the act not the person ... versus ... theft is a horrible thing but does not make the person stealing a thief. Hmmm.

I'm sorry you feel I am "taking" your "words and making them mean something else". However, I do believe an exact quote of what was stated earlier is, "They are not doing it in hopes of reproducing it's a "power" thing. Or something like that".

As others have mentioned, I'd like to understand why people object to children being raised by same sex parents (as partners rather than room mates) - without passages from the Bible being quoted, please.
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blackspyder
post Oct 22 2007, 07:50 PM
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Frankly I'm sure how to say anything in this Topic without coming off like a Grade A Proverbial Mule (9 Down, 8 letters). You've been warned so here it goes.

I dont like Bi/Homosexual Activity. Not sure if it was how i was raised or something else, doesnt matter, it just a fact of life. That being said just because "I" dont like it or think its wrong doesnt make it so, there are a lot of things I dont like in this world. All I ask is that it is not shoved down my throat (I dont grab the g/f in public or give her one of those pron movie kisses in public, so please return the favor)

Should they be allowed children? I'm not here to say they shouldnt be allowed to care for the children from a previous heterosexual relationship, as they should, or adopt an orphan or run a Foster home. But with the lack of a "Homosexual Union" in many states leaves a gap in the child care if the couple should split up. (Note: a Union is ordained by one's government, a marriage is ordained by one's God)

Whatever goes on in others lives is not my issue. All I ask is that if the rules say that Homosexual couples are not allowed to adopt, take it up with the State not the Local or World News. I'm tired of hearing about it. Pandering to the Media only ensures that I like said group a lot less (your taking up valuable time for Weather and Sports).

Judge NOT Lest Ye Be Judged Yourself

This post has been edited by blackspyder: Oct 22 2007, 07:51 PM


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cowsgonemadd3
post Oct 22 2007, 09:24 PM
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QUOTE
And what gives you the right to say what he does is wrong?
Just because the bible say's it wrong does'nt make it so .


Yes it does. What the Bible says is correct. The Bible says what he is doing is wrong.

QUOTE
CGM, I would appreciate if you would answer my question instead of ignoring me and referring me to a website.


Not ignoring, trying to get to everyone. Ask anything you want to and I will try and answer it/give my opinion.

QUOTE
But please look at your 'apology' this way. Homosexuality is an abomination - the act not the person ... versus ... theft is a horrible thing but does not make the person stealing a thief. Hmmm.


I do not get it. And I will not appologise for my beliefs or what the Bible says. People will get offended over anything but no offense was meant in this case.

QUOTE
"They are not doing it in hopes of reproducing it's a "power" thing. Or something like that".


I said ANIMALS. People probably do it too.

Sodom and Gamora in the Bible was burned to the ground by God for its homosexual acts and its sin.

This post has been edited by cowsgonemadd3: Oct 22 2007, 09:25 PM


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"The fool hath said in his heart, 'There is no God'" (Psalm 14:1; 53:1)
"The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork" (Psalms 19:1)
If you were to die today where would you go? Learn how to go to heaven today click here!
Have a look at some of the videos I have made on Metacafe!
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