I'm not advocating that the 'family values' our grandparents had be still used as a guide for our present world, but for me at least, family values start when a child is really, really young.

And consist of things that are apparently out-dated (gentle drat!).

Wee things such as:

- always saying please and thank you
- how to have proper table manners (and not gross out other people at the dinner table)
- opening doors for people is a nice thing to do, regardless of sex
- standing when the elderly enter a room and giving them a seat
- to look someone in the eye when speaking to them
- how to shake hands and say hello, make introductions

And along with these things that help teach our little ones to survive in our world, tolerance of others is vital. Even if it starts with having someone really pokey start crossing the street and the light turns red before they are half-way across. If a parent starts blowing their horn or worse, eep! If a parent explains to the child that perhaps the person is simply going as fast or he or she can, etc and shows patience and caring - well, guess I'm saying that little people mimic us and if we are kind, often they grow up to be kind and caring adults.

Add to that:

take responsibility for your actions and don't blame others.

I think we have so much problems with our youth is because many of them were not adequately taught these values.

IMHO you can't beat the old values. Those who stick to these values, regardless of their age, are real ladies and gentlemen.

Any clues as to why they aren't.??

The values of common courtesy and tolerance at not just family values, but are---or perhaps WERE---shared by society in general. They were taught at home, church, and school (some of us remember grade school reports cards with backside "ratings" on such things as "shows respect for the property of others" and so on.
The point is that there were a set of rules generally accepted by the vast majority, and these rules were re-enforced by the teachings of each of the three major areas of responsibility. Even though some of the rules evolved, there was a standard that children were taught and made responsible for following in their comportment with others. At some point in time and quite gradually, it seems to me, society rejected these standards as valid---lead by those groups who normally "set the tone," ceasing to teach them as a unified standard of conduct. This certainly parallels the trends in many other areas (the use of Standard English, for example).
The relativity of all values became the doctrine that all values were equal, and if all were equal, one could not in good conscience teach one set above any other. This was accompanied by the changing view of children, who were seen as having the same "rights" as adults; one evidence of this is that children have been forced into adult roles at an ever earlier age. They can "decide" for themselves, they date as soon (or sooner) as they matriculate into "middle school," and enjoy a very large degree of freedom (or parental neglect depending on your viewpoint).
Z

I've always wondered if, literally, some parents feel it's simply too much work.

Teaching a child takes effort - sometimes what seems like massively repetitive effort - and perhaps they feel it's really not all that important.

The 'basic courtesy' stuff listed above is so so vital for little ones to know - it's our job as parents to prepare our children for the 'real' world and these things are part of a basic education, just like attending school is.

Children are sensitive, incredible creatures and they are no more comfortable in social situations where they have no idea how to act than we, as adults, would be. It takes effort, but why do sit-down dinners together every single night seem so impossible for so many families now - and what's wrong with turning Sunday dinners into a slightly more formal occassion for the family so a child becomes truly confortable with 'social graces'.

But I've heard parents say none of this really important, rather "it's who a person is, not how they look or act that matters". Hmmm. How we look and act is part of 'who' we really are?? It reflects how we think of ourselves and how we think of others, surely?

And as for the vitally important things such as honesty and responsibililty ...

To say 'do not steal' takes little effort - to never stop by the side of the road and load up with supplies from a building site on your way home from work, for some this may take effort.

To say 'take responsiblility for what you do' takes little effort - to admit in front of our children that we were wrong, or that yes, we should have done ____ but didn't, and then fix the situation - these things take both effort and red faces, but teach our children being a good person isn't easy, just very necessary.

Love that you're still using the term, lady or gentleman, Rowal! For, to me at least, I don't care what 'style' a person takes on, there is always that subtle difference between a lady and gentleman and those that are not.

(For instance - I carried a group of 'strange' looking teenagers, green purple and whatever coloured hair, piercings all over the place and tattoos ... and yet it was this group of young people who instantly stood to give a seat to an older person on the bus and this group who were polite and courtesy to all. They were young ladies and gentlemen and a pleasure to have them around).

No offense to anyone else in this discussion by me saying this but it seems I'm the youngest one in it(22), so it wasn't so long ago that I was a teenager. I think sometimes it's easier to blame parents for who a child grows up to be or how they act when they're a bit older but it's not always the case. Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't but the important thing is not to assume either way!

These days there's a lot of teenage rebellion and stealing and other things we shouldn't do can be involved even if a parent has never shown nor condoned this kind of bahaviour. This is not meant as an excuse but these days raising children seems harder considering many households are 2 income families. A few decades ago it was mainly the father who worked and the mother was a housewife who looked after the kids but then things changed. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, merely that when both parents work it becomes harder to spend time with their children and with the increasing cost of things these days it's not surprising 2 income families continue to be more and more common.

This post has been edited by LilKitty: Oct 2 2007, 04:55 AM

I agree, LilKitty, and suspect many of the two income families are from necessity rather than choice.

Agree with your comment about kids too as while parenting has a huge factor on how children turn out, it's not the only factor. For whatever reason some children seem 'hard-wired' to be pains in the bum and often remain that way - or worse - as they hit adulthood and the remainder of their life. Yet, siblings with the same parents, same home and upbringing can turn out to be great. Must make some parents feel like they are playing Russian-roulette when they are pregant.

Whether both parents work, or only one, it is not necessarily the amount of time they spend with their children, but what happens during that time. I suspect that when most mothers stayed at home, they were quite busy with their own tasks most of the day, and didn't spend their entire time with their children.
Z

And in my days. And my parents days. And my grandparents days. And on back to the beginnings of recorded history - and probably even further. Teenage rebellion is nothing new. The problems come when kids, right from the start, see that type of behavior as the norm.

But they did know what we were up to. Especially when we were up to no good. You think the I-net is a fast way to exchange information? Then you've forgotten the Mom-Net.

Z I think you have hit on a sore nerve with the above statement but it's a nerve that should be hit and often! When children were allowed and treated as equals to adults things were headed on a downward slid that over time has picked up momentum. Then there's the "adults" that are supposed to be teaching their children proper manners,respect and accountability. A large majority of parents these days were themselves raised in the equal rules for all generation themselves as well as the I'm #1 and to heck with everyone else until I have my say and way generation and Oh yes, the down with the establishment group, and we expect them to teach their children the social graces of society? How can they teach what they themselves didn't believe in or practice?
Our oldest daughter and her husband decided that their two boys would be raised using psychiatry, what a time that was!! It was given up when they made the discovery that you just can't reason with a 2 yr. old. I'd laugh at this but to tell you the truth it's not all that funny considering that there have been many others of their generation that thought the same way and stuck it out, it doesn't necessarily lend itself to teaching children much of anything about good manners etc.
The things that today's children, teens, and young adults need to learn should be taught not only by instruction but also by example. I think we all need to ask ourselves what kind of example am I setting for my children and grandchildren as well.