In another thread (http://www.thoughtvent.com/forums/Should-religion-and-state-be-kept-separate-in-schools-t680.html&st=120&start=120), we seem to be venturing once again into an area that I would rather not have take over the discussion about whether religion should be part of the school system.

The below is a quote from Samuel, should the topic wish to be discussed.

Samuel: " I derive my ideas about homosexuality from exactly what it is, a filthy disease ridden, degenerate lifestyle"


Mara: "Note that we have at least one member here who is homosexual and in addition to myself (and undoubtedly others) who find this comment cruel and offensive, please note the below two rules here at ThoughtVent ...

* There will be no racial, ethnic, gender based insults or any other personal discriminations. This will not be tolerated and can lead to immediate suspension.

* There will be no posts meant to offend or hurt any other member, in a manner which is offensive or inflammatory. This includes flaming or instigating arguments.

This topic may be discussed in it's own thread but at no time shall posts be deliberately worded to hurt others".


Samual: "Would you rather I put in here exactly what the Greek said about Homosexuality in Romans 1:24-30?? Or would translating the Greek into modern day English be to "Offencive to you and others??? I will guarantee you, the Bible isn't kind to homosexuals".

I'm going to simplify my opinion regarding homosexuality.


I believe that there are a number of genes in our DNA that define everything that makes each of us an individual.

A certain number of these combinations make up certain behaviours or actions that some of us view as homosexual in nature. The more of these combinations a person has, the more likely that person will act out homosexual behaviour.

These combinations occur naturally and it is quite possible that there isn't one human being that doesn't have one or more of these gene sets. However, it may take thousands (hundreds of thousands? More?) of those genes before one actually acts on their homosexual leanings.



A question:

Why would God, any god, create a system that allows for such combinations and then condemn them, effectively admitting the imperfections in a "perfect" plan?

Samuel - again it may just be my perception, but it seems to me that your "discussions" always border on the confrontational - no-one would deny your right to express your views and opinions, me least of all, but do you have to "come the aggro" much of the time - just look at your last comment .... "would you rather I put in here exactly.. etc" what the heck is the point of making this an apparent challenge - an intellectual challenge, yes great, a challenge presented in an almost threatening manner, following a very discourteous and ill-considered remark does not , I feel, contribute anything but resentment to what should be a reasonable and civilised discussion.

At the risk of stepping out of line, may I suggest you think twice before you commit your posts? You are obviously an intelligent and successful thinking adult......

Personally,I have no problems about someone being Homosexual.Have met and known plenty in my lifetime, and never have had any issues whatsoever. It's their life to live as they choose,and as long as they don't interfere with my lifesyle,then it's really none of my business.They are only seeking happiness the same as Heterosexuals are.

This post has been edited by DSTM: Feb 2 2008, 03:06 AM

Sorry, there is absolutely no proof to back up your opinion!!

I have a foster brother that I love very much that's a homosexual. But THAT doesn't mean I agree with that life style.

Before I start, look up these Greek Schoolars; Vincent, Thayer, Trench, Liddell, Scott, Alford, Robertson, and Wuest. I will be quoting them a lot. If you have any that can refute what they have to say, please bring up their names.

Romans 1:24 "Gave up" is the Greek word paradidomi, "to give into the hands of another, to give over into one's power or use." Since man chose to give up God and worship the creature, God could do nothing but give men into the control of sinful things they preferred to God. In other words, God would not violate man's will and force him to do something he did not want to do. When men persisted in following their totally depraved natures, God allowed them free rein. The natural result was immorality of the vilest kind. Alford says of God's act of delivering mankind over into the control of utter human depravity, "not merely permissive, but judicial, God delivered them over. As sin begets sin, and darkness of mind, deeper darkness, grace gives place to judgement, and the divine wrath hardens men, and hurries them on to more fearful degrees of depravity." "Lusts" is the Greek word epithumia, "a passionate craving, longing, desire, here a sinful one. "Through" is the Greek word en, " in their own hearts." Alford says, "not by or through the lusts; the lusts of the heart were the field of action, the department of their being in which this dishonor took place." He defines akatharsia, "more than mere profligacy in the satisfaction of natural lust --- bestiality, impurity in the physical, not only in the social and religious sense."

Translation. On which account God delivered them over in the passionate cravings of their hearts to bestial profligacy which had for it's purpose the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves.

I'll continue on later today with V.s 25, 26, and 27. You will fine that when one violates the laws of nature, one must pay the price. And you will fine that the way I put it was mild compared to the way God puts it.

This post has been edited by mz30: Feb 2 2008, 05:34 AM

While it appears at this time that there may not be a "gay gene", I'm talking about a number of the possible around 3 billion base pairs of the human DNA, each with something over 20,000 genes.

Not one "gay gene", but maybe thousands or even 10's or 100's of thousands that might imply homosexual behaviour.


This would be very similar to the matchings that cause genitalia differences that at birth make it difficult to tell whether the infant has either male or female genitalia or those situations where a person has the genitals of one sex but other indications that they are the opposite sex.

One such as you or I may have more genes in common with someone that is homosexual than we do with someone who's hair color, height, physical build, etc. are different from us.

As we map the human genome, and we will, the more evidence we'll find that I believe will support this concept. While you say that there is no proof to back up my theory, I'll also point out that there is no proof that it is wrong, either.

It is not my intention to debate translations from the Greek except to indicate that other readings tend to different viewpoints on the passages of attitudes towards homosexuality, nor is it my intention to discuss the Christian theology except to indicate that not all sectarian dogma is hostile towards homosexuality.
[comment: I note that the early church seemed to understand the words of the Christ to allow it to include gay members.The hostility toward homosexuality on the part of some Christian sects seems to be a later historical phenomena. If the teachings of Jesus are central to Christianity, then it seems logical to look to what he himself said.]

It is my intention, however, to note the plain fact that homosexuality has existed throughout recorded time and throughout the world. It seems, moreover, that it exists not only in the human world, but in the natural world as a whole. Recent studies, moreover, indicate that "homosexual experiences" are not confined, strictly speaking, to avowed homosexuals, but rather include a far greater percent of the population.

Outside of the defining characteristic of gay men and women in sexual preferences, my own interactions with the gay community have convinced me that thinking there is something called a gay "lifestyle" can only be based on a caricature, and has no basis in fact. The gays I have known are as unique as any group of individuals, and certainly share the same kind of concerns as do straights about everyday human problems common to us all.

As with any reductionalist thinking, once one encounters individuals as individuals, one's attitude undergoes a transformation setting it apart from the commonplace. If someone says, " I have no problem with individual gay men or women, just with homosexuality as such, then I would say that THESE people really DO have a problem.

Can we all not treat each other as individuals first and foremost and recognise that the humanity common to everyone leaves no room for the kind of intolerance that causes the high suicide rate, for example, among gay teenagers or our reading in the newspapers about gay-bashing and bodies being discovered tied to a fence in Montana?
Z

When I read about 'gay bashing', I literally want to weep. The same way I want to weep when I read about how Black people were bashed for simply being 'black'.

So much of how we judge the world around us and the people in it is from other's opinions, whether written or verbalized. And surely, as adults, we should learn to think - and think hard - for ourselves.

So much anguish when we don't. Hitler said ... so thousands died. Some Church leaders said ... so thousands died. And to judge any 'group' of people - in itself this surely lays open the path to adding more anquish to our world - huge sigh.

Once more your guessing, nothing more.

To start with, the Ancient Greek is the most exacting language out there and I am using the most accredited Greek scholars from the last two centuries, if you care to debate with that feel free to do so. There can be only one view point when the Greek itself is the source. It's when you start using "translations" of those less accredited to try and determine what the Greek meant that you run into trouble. And since this IS the Religion board you had better be ready to debate the facts on the bases of scripture or you are doing nothing but spouting hot air.


{{{[comment: I note that the early church seemed to understand the words of the Christ to allow it to include gay members.}}}

Please name Book, Chapter, and verse. If you knew ANYTHING about the Bible you would know that it has but one author and 40 writers that put down what they were told by the one author, that's what divine inspiration means.

{{{The hostility toward homosexuality on the part of some Christian sects seems to be a later historical phenomena. If the teachings of Jesus are central to Christianity, then it seems logical to look to what he himself said.]}}

And once again you do not know what your talking about. Paul did NOT come LATER!!! He was one of the 12 Apostles and the Apostle sent to the Gentiles.

{{{It is my intention, however, to note the plain fact that homosexuality has existed throughout recorded time and throughout the world}}

And that means it was right??? Murder also existed from the beginning of time and by your logic that means that it's also right???

{{{Can we all not treat each other as individuals first and foremost and recognise that the humanity common to everyone leaves no room for the kind of intolerance }}

Sorry, this is a religious thread and it is dedicated to what the Bible has to say, not your opinion because it means nothing in comparison.

Religion is based on opinions, surely? For as others have mentioned, even within one religion there are many who dedicate their lives to studying and understanding the Bible - and yet, few of these scholars can even agree on everything.

Opinions count - they are what make us who and what we are.

To group homosexual people and the 'right and wrong' of them - and place them in the same sentence as murder? Egad. For that matter, whatever happened to 'who is without sin, cast the first stone'.

Let me live with and beside a person who is kind and gentle and filled with happiness - whether he or she be 'straight' or homosexual - rather than near a person who can freely judge others so harshly when they do no harm.

(And please ... don't say that homosexual people raise children to be homosexual ... nor that they are predators of the young. Yes, there are instances of this. But there are instances of 'straight' people's children being homosexual and 'straight' people preying on the young).

Thinking of the Bible and what it has to say - and opinions ... I find it wonderful that so, so many religious leaders do not find homosexuality a threat in any way. In fact, they welcome everyone into their Churches and into the arms of God. And they are using their opinions of what their God would want them to do, surely - so again, opinions do mean a lot/

Since when is it "Gay" bashing when it comes from the manufactures handbook.

{{The same way I want to weep when I read about how Black people were bashed for simply being 'black'.}}

Let's see, the last time I looked people of color had a REAL hard time changing the color of their skin , but changing ones life style is much easier. Lifestyles is something that's called a choice unlike skin color.

{{Some Church leaders said ... so thousands died}}

Other than the Catholic Church please tell when the Church leaders said something and thousands died?

{{{And surely, as adults, we should learn to think - and think hard - for ourselves}}

And once more, this is a religious site so how about allowing the Bible speak for it's self???

Romans 1:25 "Change" is the Greek word metallasso, "to exchange one thing for another". Instead of the truth of God, humanity embraced a lie. " Creature" is the Greek word ktisis "the creation", or "the created thing". "Worship" is the Greek word sebazomai, "to honor religiously, to worship."Served" is the Greek word latreuo, "to render religious service or homage". "More" is the Greek word para, which means "alongside, beside." Vincent says, "The preposition indicates passing by the Creator altogether, not merely giving preference to the creature." "Who" is the Greek word hoitines, referring back to those in verse 24 whom God gave up to their own passionate cravings. The word emphasizes character or nature. These were of such a nature or character as to have exchanged God's truth for a lie. That is exactly what would be expected of persons so constituted. "Blessed" is the Greek word eulogetos, made up of lego, "to speak," and eu, "well" or "good", thus, "to speak well or good" of a person, to eulogize him. Our word "eulogy" is derived from this Greek word.

Translation: Who were of such a character that they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and rendered religious service to the creation rather than to the Creator who is to be eulogized forever. Amen.