From the research I have done, it appears that the male is the one who is supposed to do many of the things on a date. Regardless of who asks who out, the male is supposed to be the one who pays for both parties. This is expressed in many female views, that it is considered rude if the male does anything else except take the full burden of the date, especially when it comes to meals. Why is this? Did the female not agree to go out or ask herself? What then absolves her of any responsibility of the tab? She should pay for her portion of the meal and the date. If she doesn't want to go someplace due to cost issues, then she needs to speak out. Otherwise this implies that there's some sort of "privilege" that the male gets to go out with the female. Well I'm sorry, but there's just as much of a "privilege" that you get to go out with the male.

A slightly off-topic thought, applying none the less to this thread. This would be the matter of "gentlemanly" acts. For example, the opening of doors, the taking out of seats, etc. Sure it may be nice, but why do so very few females, if at any at all, return the favor? Keeping a door open for someone behind you is a given, regardless of genders. However, I am mainly referring to behaviors expressed during dating. It is always expected of the male to open the door for the female, to take out a seat for her at a restaurant etc. Why can't she do it herself? Why can't she do it for the male?

What is with the age old belief that the male is supposed to be the one to approach the female? Is the female not capable of speaking up? True there are more females asking men out on a date than ever before, but there are still people who believe in the tradition of the male asking for the date and making the plans. It's as if males are supposed to "treat" females. Can females not "treat" males? Again, I know times are changing in this regard and I am glad.

Why do people insist on "dressing up"? Is a date not supposed to be about the personalties of the two interested parties? Of course it is, so why do looks matter? Who cares if he wears a tux, or she wears a dress? None of it matters. The argument that it shows you care about the date enough to dress up is ridiculous for reasons stated above. I respect people more when they appear as they are and not all fancied up (if you can even call it that).

As you can see, there is much inequality and ridiculous things in the dating world. Why do females preach equal rights yet still expect the males to do and pay for everything on a date? (There's always the odd one in the bag, but the majority of females are this way).

Don't be afraid to ask any questions, I am happy to answer. In this way I can learn even more about myself.

My opinion on this, is whoever does the inviting, should Pay the bill, regardless of gender,or relationship.
As far as dress goes,by dressing up shows you care enough about the Date, with this person.
I think Chivalry is most important on a Date, if you want to leave a good impression. I don't think Equality is an issue.

This post has been edited by DSTM: Jan 30 2008, 05:52 AM

So much of this social formalism has its origins in the Medieval world, and perhaps even earlier, that one must consider retaining them something of an artistic choice, or perhaps an elaborate play that requires their actors to perform according to certain established rules (commedia d'arte, for example).

One might look at it this way (to play devil's advocate here): that both parties can follow certain rules (courtesies) eases the beginnings of a potential relationship, while allowing both parties to focus on other things. Or: that the man traditionally pays for, and makes all the necessary arrangements about, the first few dates provides the Other with an insight into his nature. Many of these rules are interpretive signs about expectations; for example between something casual to something that indicates an interest in pursuing a longer lasting and more intimate relationship. Many of the rules are silly, but they do allow for interpretation of meaning.
Z

When it comes to paying for the date, (and don't ask me how I know this, long story ) in "Dating for Dummies" it says that whoever asks is the one who pays.

And as for dressing up for a date, I'm only seventeen, so I may not be too experienced in this department, but I don't where suits to dinner (unless the kind of place I'm going requires that kind of thing). But for those that do dress up, it doesn't necessarily mean that they care about the date itself, it means they care how the other person views them. E.g., if I go on a date dressed like a slob, the girl I'm going with would probably think that she doesn't matter enough for me to actually take the time to tidy up my appearance. If I do dress up, it makes her feel important, and more importantly, appreciated, which is definitely a good thing.

The same thing goes for chivalry. It makes her feel like she is important to you. A lot of dating is about self-confidence, and doing acts of chivalry gives her that. I don't think this necessarily applies to all, but generally, a guy doesn't need a girl to hold the door open for him to give him self-confidence. Rather, I gain confidence by doing such acts, because then I know she will like me that much more for it. Personally, I see it as a win-win situation.

Oh, and trust me when I say that it's not just the guys asking out the girls now (at least in my high school). And even when the girl won't ask out the guy, she usually makes it pretty clear she wants to be asked out (i.e. "I heard it through the grapevine") and it's basically the same thing, just informally done.

(Oh, and considering that the females are the ones who have to go through the pain of childbirth, I think the least males could do is pull out their chair once in a while. )

The first date is always the worst. After that you can define your relationship, the two of you set your own rules from there out.
As to the dressing up - girls like to do it. Trust me after the wedding, there isn't much opportunity to do so.

Speaking as a woman - If a man doesn't show me the respect I think I deserve, out he goes. But at the same, I would expect the woman to treat the man with respect also.

The whole "dating ritual" is rather a pain in the rear. Quite frankly I'm glad I don't have to play the dating game anymore.
Waiting by the phone to see if he liked me or not. No thank you. Oh, yes, my personal favorite - sitting there worried all night if this is going to be one of those dates where he "expects payment" because he put out X number of dollars for a dinner and some form of entertainment.

Although a date night with my husband once in awhile would be nice.

Reading all the different comments just now lead me to think that maybe there are different rules when one is young and another set (maybe with overlapping parts at times) once one gets "established" and on one's own. I was thinking especially about who pays what, although there are other areas I suppose, too. I know that, at least for me, the payment rule changed drastically once I left college (where everyone is more or less in the same boat---namely, poor) and began working and dating; so did the dress up rule, too.
Oddly enough, I suppose that once one reaches a "mature" age, the rules change again, and probably back to something like the earlier ones at school.
Just some thoughts......
Z

Thank you for the responses. However I still say that when both parties agree to go out, both parties should pay their share. After all, if some business or some place asks you to go to their place of business, they're not going to pay as some courtesy to you. The rule that the one who asks the other person out has to pay, is silly. It's like I'm paying them to go out with me instead of it being a joint affair.

My feelings on what you should wear root back to society's obsession with looks in general. To put it simply, I believe people should just look normal without ever having the need to dress up, as it's not really who you are. Of course a minimum level of decency should be kept: clean haircut, showered, and normal conservative clothes. I don't agree with the whole idea that you have to dress up to impress/compliment the other person. Simply, it is a ridiculous ritual that never should have been implemented in my opinion. Both parties should come to get to know each other and not their looks.

But often enough, how someone looks can be a very clear determiner about his/her personality. If you come on a date dressed up, that tells the girl about your personality, just as it would if you came dressed as a slob. It's not a requirement to dress up when dating, it's just an attempt to make a pleasant first impression. When it comes to dating, sometimes first impressions can be immensly important.

Oh, and as for both parties paying, I can just imagine that conversation:
"Hey, I was wondering if you'd like to go to dinner sometime?"
"I think I'd like that."
"Oh, by the way, bring 20$ for it."

Not a good way to start out.

I think the words "separate checks, please" can be a real turn-off on a first date.

Maybe I have dated the wrong people ( though I think not), but they will often either say "let me at least leave the tip" or if they are very foolish and it's the first date, "well, I will pay the bar bill."

I wonder what a guy would think if he asked someone where they wanted to go to eat, and they named a Very Nice Restaurant, and then they came dressed in jeans and some off-the-rack T-shirt after you put on a sportjacket, slacks, and dress shirt?

Z

Of course, some do insist on paying for themselves, regardless of who asks who.

e.g., my homecoming date didn't want me to pay for her dinner, even though I asked her. (I secretly signaled the waitress that I was paying for her, and by the time my date realized what happened and began to protest, our waitress told her "If he says that he's paying, I'm not going to argue." )

Anyway, solaris, if that is how you truly feel, then I'm sure you'll meet someone special that feels the same way.

Aah, things must have been so much less complicated before Women's Lib arrived - huge, gentle laugh.

But some things surely never change?

My Father always said the main reason a gentleman dresses up when he takes a lady out is because he's doing her the courtesy of letting her do just that - dress up. And few women don't enjoy dressing up when going out - huge smile!

Sounds horribly old-fashioned, I know, but it's lovely to have a gentleman pulls out one's chair at a restaurant, stand when a lady enters a room, know how to eat at a dining table without making those around him feel queazy, hold open a car door for her, etc. Sure, we can do physically do it ourself, but it's lovely to have the courtesy of their actions done on our behalf.

And in turn, a lady should remember that most men are not 'made of money' and while it's not a 'date' if both pay for their own meals while together, it's a lovely gesture for her to offer to pay for every second meal or, as others mentioned, at least cover the tip - and always, always pay for both meals if she is doing the asking, while being gracious enough to let him pay once in awhile too should he offer.

And to give a gentle laugh here to others, I hope ...

Always told our girls a few main things when dating young men.

1. If he says he's a rotten person. etc, believe him. (He's known himself longer than you have and is quite likely right).
2. If he hates his mother/sisters - run. If he 'lives' for his mother/sisters - run.
4. Never continue dating a guy that has more problems/baggage than you do.
5. Never continue dating a guy that has a lousy credit rating (unless the reason was truly out of his control).
6. Never continue dating a guy who drives really agressively. (Chances are if he's like this while trying to impress you, his agressive is vastly larger in most areas when he no longer cares as much about how you view him).

This post has been edited by Mara: Jan 30 2008, 04:33 PM

Mara I love the advice that you gave to your daughters. How very appropriate it is, and Sphinx, lucky is the girl whom you ask out. You are wise beyond your years when it comes to the subject of dating and seem to have gone out of your way to take into consideration all aspects of relationships. I don't think that common courtesy and the williness to take into consideration others feelings is anything to be looked down on. If more people would put it into practice there would be far fewer problems in the world.
Dressing up for a date? Hmmm Most women, and I know of some men, actually dress up for a date because they enjoy looking nice not only for themselves but for the man/woman they are with. If going to McDonald's of course you would dress appropriatly, jeans, T-shirt etc and that's fine by me but it is nice to go somewhere a little nicer now and then and dress a little better for a change. I also see dressing appropriatly for the occasion as a show of respect not only for your partner but for yourself as well. To add another note to whether to "dress up" or not for a date and what the man's responsibilities are or are not where the woman is concerned take into consideration not only we humans but animals as well. If you look around it is always the male of the species that is the more highly decorative one of the two, and not only is he better dressed he performs for the lady as well and Oh how they perform!! Pulling out a chair or holding a door open is childs play when it comes to what some of these poor creatures have to go through just to get the girl and after the poor thing has all but exhausted himself she can, and often does, turn her back on him and walk/fly/swim away without even so much as a by your leave. So that being taken into consideration I really don't see where being polite,dressing nicely and showing some respect for each other should be such a problem, it could be alot worse. Try dancing like a blooming idiot, making silly stupid sounds and just generally looking like a boob just to get a date!!
Ah well, to each his own.

As I sit here choking on my coffee... Mara, I'm Gonna have to steal that advice. Just letting you know, so, don't call a cop. Ok?

Every so often and on special occasions, I go "clubbing" with some younger friends. I notice that they(M/F/?), in a way, "dress up" for the evening. I don't see why a first date should not be an exception to what one normally wears, even though the uniform worn might be totally different.
Incidentally, I think "dressing up" is more of a burden for the lady than it is for the man, and if she wants to take the time (and expence), it is the least I can do to wear something less casual. It certainly gives both people the chance to make the occasion something "special" and out of the ordinary humdrum of life; that in itself is not a bad thing.
Z

I know I'm weird, strange, and radical in many ways. Therefore I still see dressing up as a pointless affair that is ultimately meaningless. I think the simple act of two people going out on a date is a "special" event. There's no need to dress up unless you plan on performing someplace. Now that I mentioned it, the whole analogy of a date being a performance, where you show the other person the best you have to offer, to also be silly. If I were to go on a date, I would come exactly as I am, with no change in dress, attitude, or personality. Dressing up just shows the fake you, not the real you. People should go as they really are.